Worst employee you've had to let go?

[ikarasu]

We recently found out one of our employees have been coming in late... but is always clocked in 10-15 minutes before her start time. So this past weekend I've been tasked at finding out how - Long story short... Her and another employees time cards match every single day, down to the minute... even though one shows up 15 minutes later, I checked our outdoor cameras everyday for the past 2 weeks to see when the employee has been ariving, and every day it's 5 or so minutes late... but everyday, she's clocked in before the start time. So I had to pull a few months worth of time cards,and sure enough... These 2 employees match their clock in 95 out of 100 clock ins. (I hate time cards, but we have about 25 employees... 5 of whom work slightly odd hours due to life circumstances, So its the only way to get accurate hours for the people who work 5 hours one day, 6 the next, 6 and a half the next, etc).

Now we have the 1 employee on Camera being late, but being clocked in early... so she's 100% fired. We don't have Cameras by the time clocks, just at the doors because theyre meant to be security cameras...so we dont have definitive proof on the person clocking her in, but it's pretty obvious - Not sure she will be getting fired since we can't prove it.... These are employees we've had for 25 years, long before my time - But they know theres zero tolerance for clocking someone in... I have no idea how long it's been going on... Could be weeks/months of stolen time.... The owner is rightfully pissed and wanted to fire them the moment he found out on Friday, but I made him mull it over on the weekend, and said right now it's just a suspicion (Employee #2 was seeing showing up 5 minutes late, yet clocked in 15 mins early), and even though I'm 99% sure its whats going on, we should have proof before terminating someone, especially before X-mas... So now I have a meeting for later today with all the evidence to determine when, how, and whether its going to be 1, or 2 of them being let go... People who've been here forever, who know the business in and out... one of our only screenprinters, 25 years of knowledge lost.... We're a very lenient company, I have 2 employees who show up 10 minutes late everyday, They dont get paid for those 10 minutes... but they talked to us about it, and we told them it was fine to be late since we know the situation, but they would have to work 10 mins through lunch, 10 mins at the end of the day, or not get paid for those 10 minutes to make it fair for everyone. Now we're going to a badge / photo time clock instead of paper one to prevent it from happening again as well... I don't think anyone else would do it, but I never would have thought these 2 would do it either.

First people fired from this company in the 10+ years I've been here.... It sucks firing people you've known for 10 years! My last job at a non printing company, I've had to fire people for refusing to do work... getting into fights... doing donuts on forklifts / smashing into racks, etc.... But nothing like this. Todays going to be a shitty day!

So... Whats youre "I didn't want to, but had to" fire people moment?

 

[Stacey K]

Well...if you really want to get to the root of the problem, set up a camera looking at the time clock and then you will find out exactly who is doing it and you can get rid of both of them. If I'm following you correctly...#2 is clocking in for #1 when she arrives. They are both guilty of a crime. Both untrustworthy. I would never cover for my friend like that and a real friend would not want to put your job in danger. Shifty gals - it probably doesn't stop with the time clock.

Personally, I would want #2 gone also. If you can't wait I would pull them both in separate offices at the same time and confront them both at the same time to see if their stories match up. Maybe employee 2 is being blackmailed...although that's unlikely. You can't allow them to speak or text each other in between or they will match their stories up. Trust me, women do that and they are super sneaky about it. If you fire #1, she's IMMEDIATELY going to text #2 so their stories match up and you won't get the truth from #2. She needs to be confronted as a suspect due to the time cards matching up - or wait and catch her in the act.

Are you sure #2 isn't clocking other people in too? What else is she doing or stealing from you?

My sister found out someone was stealing milk from her daycare. We knew exactly who it was but wanted more proof. We hooked up a camera and found she was doing more than stealing, she was looking at employee files in the office also. She was stealing milk, toilet paper, lots of food, office supplies, many other things that we didn't even know about. Another gal was coming in and doing her laundry on the weekends.

 

[StarSign]

Just go stand at the time clock

 

[ikarasu]

Just go stand at the time clock

People come in from 740-810. I'd waste 30 mins of my day watching everyone.

I got a new time clock that's done by badge, or fingerprint or photo. Haven't decided which way to use, but it'll fix the issue.

As for the employee clocking the other in, she's most likelly going to be let go as well, just deciding on when / how to do it. If she admits to it, which she may, it'll be easy to let her go. She's more integral to our team... But imo, theft means no matter how important you are, you should be let go.

 

[Stacey K]

People come in from 740-810. I'd waste 30 mins of my day watching everyone.

I got a new time clock that's done by badge, or fingerprint or photo. Haven't decided which way to use, but it'll fix the issue.

As for the employee clocking the other in, she's most likelly going to be let go as well, just deciding on when / how to do it. If she admits to it, which she may, it'll be easy to let her go. She's more integral to our team... But imo, theft means no matter how important you are, you should be let go.

100% agree with you.

Great idea with the new clock! It's hard for most of us to fathom what people are thinking because we would not do it.

I do feel like you are already very accommodating and since covid, most employers are. Maybe they just hate you or the boss and want to screw you 8 ways till Sunday.

At any rate, we need an update on the reason don't leave us hanging

 

[chester215]

One night the police showed up at my house at around 8:30 pm and they were looking for the registered owner of a vehicle found at the scene of a crime and abandoned when the police arrived on the other side of town. The employee was looking for vacant homes and stealing the copper pipes for drug money. I was in my pj's so quickly realized that it wasn't me. I told them the name and address of the employee and they eventually caught him about a week later. The house also had web cameras in it and caught him looking directly into the camera with an OH SH....! look on his face.
He also thought we owed him money so a couple days later he took a ladder form the warehouse and broke into the the office by smashing a window on the 2nd floor. He got less than the $200 we keep in petty cash. He cut himself pretty good on the glass and the police had the DNA evidence they needed.
I had just registered the vehicle a week or so before and didn't notice that the registry had put the vehicle under my name instead of the company.
We fixed that pretty quickly.
He served about 10-12 months for that and other break ins.


Another one...
A driver was pulled over during work with an open bottle of hard liquor and was smashed and arrested for DWI.
Had a crack pipe and other stuff in the vehicle.
Never heard from him again.

 

[StarSign]

She is stealing hours and you are worried about 30 minutes?

 

[starknaked]

We recently had the same issue with people clocking in for others..... Our new payroll now requires our employees to clock in from their cell phones via app that shows on google maps the time and the geo fencing where they are at the time of clocking in. This has made a huge difference in attendance & hours put in. If there is ever a question about their time, I can look it up on my PC to clarify.

 

[binki]

In the past we had the following:
1. Refused to work during a mandatory event that was understood in writing at time of hire. Filed for unemployment, granted, challenged, denied. Went through 3 rounds before she gave up.
2. Stopped showing up. When called said she would come in for more money. Nope.
3. Screwed up multiple jobs including spilling coffee on an order and just boxing it up to go out.
4. General not showing up to work.
5. Screwed up jobs on purpose for customers this employee didn't like.

Now we ran our schedule very unique. We had hours each week to fill and each employee could pick their schedule. Most just would skip work when they didn't want to come in.

Today we have no employees. Owner ran and much happier and less stress.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

My wife has to deal with this at her work. She is one of those that hates conflict of any type, so she always dreads it. Having to deal with it around the holidays just makes it worse.

This just cements why I work by myself. Outside of not getting along with others, I don't feel bad about docking my pay if I show up late or decided to go on vacation (even though I still did work for the most part, but it was adjusted, mostly stuff that I could email).

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

In most states, you can fire anyone, at anytime, for anything... other than discrimination. You can fire them because they're ugly on a Tuesday. You can't fire them because they're black. Not sure how it works in Canada.

Punch card time clock? They have fingerprint time clocks now for no $$.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

In most states, you can fire anyone, at anytime, for anything... other than discrimination. You can fire them because they're ugly on a Tuesday. You can't fire them because they're black. Not sure how it works in Canada.

Punch card time clock? They have fingerprint time clocks now for no $$.

It's barely most states. 27-28 I think have some type of right to work law. I think Michigan got rid of theirs. So while it's technically as you say, most, it's barely most.

 

[netsol]

We recently found out one of our employees have been coming in late... but is always clocked in 10-15 minutes before her start time. So this past weekend I've been tasked at finding out how - Long story short... Her and another employees time cards match every single day, down to the minute... even though one shows up 15 minutes later, I checked our outdoor cameras everyday for the past 2 weeks to see when the employee has been ariving, and every day it's 5 or so minutes late... but everyday, she's clocked in before the start time. So I had to pull a few months worth of time cards,and sure enough... These 2 employees match their clock in 95 out of 100 clock ins. (I hate time cards, but we have about 25 employees... 5 of whom work slightly odd hours due to life circumstances, So its the only way to get accurate hours for the people who work 5 hours one day, 6 the next, 6 and a half the next, etc).

Now we have the 1 employee on Camera being late, but being clocked in early... so she's 100% fired. We don't have Cameras by the time clocks, just at the doors because theyre meant to be security cameras...so we dont have definitive proof on the person clocking her in, but it's pretty obvious - Not sure she will be getting fired since we can't prove it.... These are employees we've had for 25 years, long before my time - But they know theres zero tolerance for clocking someone in... I have no idea how long it's been going on... Could be weeks/months of stolen time.... The owner is rightfully pissed and wanted to fire them the moment he found out on Friday, but I made him mull it over on the weekend, and said right now it's just a suspicion (Employee #2 was seeing showing up 5 minutes late, yet clocked in 15 mins early), and even though I'm 99% sure its whats going on, we should have proof before terminating someone, especially before X-mas... So now I have a meeting for later today with all the evidence to determine when, how, and whether its going to be 1, or 2 of them being let go... People who've been here forever, who know the business in and out... one of our only screenprinters, 25 years of knowledge lost.... We're a very lenient company, I have 2 employees who show up 10 minutes late everyday, They dont get paid for those 10 minutes... but they talked to us about it, and we told them it was fine to be late since we know the situation, but they would have to work 10 mins through lunch, 10 mins at the end of the day, or not get paid for those 10 minutes to make it fair for everyone. Now we're going to a badge / photo time clock instead of paper one to prevent it from happening again as well... I don't think anyone else would do it, but I never would have thought these 2 would do it either.

First people fired from this company in the 10+ years I've been here.... It sucks firing people you've known for 10 years! My last job at a non printing company, I've had to fire people for refusing to do work... getting into fights... doing donuts on forklifts / smashing into racks, etc.... But nothing like this. Todays going to be a shitty day!

So... Whats youre "I didn't want to, but had to" fire people moment?

Biometric (fingerprint) time clock might be money well spent.
and after firing AT LEAST 1 long time employee it would be a good message

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

It's barely most states. 27-28 I think have some type of right to work law. I think Michigan got rid of theirs. So while it's technically as you say, most, it's barely most.

Technically right, is the best kind of right

 

[ikarasu]

Well...if you really want to get to the root of the problem, set up a camera looking at the time clock and then you will find out exactly who is doing it and you can get rid of both of them. If I'm following you correctly...#2 is clocking in for #1 when she arrives. They are both guilty of a crime. Both untrustworthy. I would never cover for my friend like that and a real friend would not want to put your job in danger. Shifty gals - it probably doesn't stop with the time clock.

Personally, I would want #2 gone also. If you can't wait I would pull them both in separate offices at the same time and confront them both at the same time to see if their stories match up. Maybe employee 2 is being blackmailed...although that's unlikely. You can't allow them to speak or text each other in between or they will match their stories up. Trust me, women do that and they are super sneaky about it. If you fire #1, she's IMMEDIATELY going to text #2 so their stories match up and you won't get the truth from #2. She needs to be confronted as a suspect due to the time cards matching up - or wait and catch her in the act.

Are you sure #2 isn't clocking other people in too? What else is she doing or stealing from you?

My sister found out someone was stealing milk from her daycare. We knew exactly who it was but wanted more proof. We hooked up a camera and found she was doing more than stealing, she was looking at employee files in the office also. She was stealing milk, toilet paper, lots of food, office supplies, many other things that we didn't even know about. Another gal was coming in and doing her laundry on the weekends.

We have like 10 Cameras due to all the break ins, most are outside though or pointing at key equipment / supplies.... They were never intended to be for employees, My motto is if you can't trust your employee... they shouldn't be working for you, so we never wanted to become a nanny worksite... though after this that may change. The fingerprint timeclock arrived, and I spent an hour setting it up... for $200 it's really neat, and if it breaks... everything is cloud based so it'd take 5 seconds to program a new one. That should take care of the clocking in without having to point a Camera directly at employees.

Theres 3 of us that decide employees - So we've been in meetings and back and fourth all day. We pretty much all decided that both need to go - I would want to bring them both into seperate rooms - before we'd have 1 manager + 1 witness, plus the employee being fired... pulled into an office at the end of the day, multiple employees at once meant multiple managers / witnesses in different rooms... but that was my last company. I think in this case they're both going to be brought into the same room and let go at once. No one was being blackmailed, these guys are really close friends, and I found out theyve been there for 25 years...my time was wrong!. Always eat lunch together, etc. I know the employee doing the clocking in sees it as a favor... but apparently 15 years ago the company fired a few people for the same thing, so these 2 were both around at the time and they know it's not tolerated - We have an employee handbook, and it's in there as a zero tolerance offense... Which is why everyone is leaning towards both are being fired.


We're not sure she isnt clocking others in. It'll be something we ask when theyre both in a meeting getting let go. I'm also going to look at the time cards and see if anyone else has the exact same times, but I don't think she is... but who knows!

They're just putting the paperwork together now - Tomorrow would be D day, but one of them has the day off, so it's likelly going to be end of wednesday now... so I get to be all friendly with them for 2 days and act like nothing is wrong One of them is1 of 2 shippers- the other shipper is73years old, and is only staying around because shipper#1 doesn't want him to quit yet.... Soone reason we were hemming and hawing about it, is we know if we fire the person doing the punching...we're going to lose our whole shipping department. Our CNC operator is moving at the end of the year too. So we will lose 1/2 screen printers... 2/2 shippers... 1/1 CNC guy.... All within a few weeks, so thats going to leave me to do all the wide format printing, all the cncing, most of the shipping, while training new people in all 3 departments. Keeping the employee around would benefit the company more... but I still don't think it's worth it.

 

[ikarasu]

Just go stand at the time clock

I did today - Part of my plan was to be in the area when the employee we thought was punching the clocks came in. I saw her come in... grab her and the other employees card... draw some photos on it (They both have hand drawn photos so they can tell their cards apart easy), and hilight all the days of the week so they can clock in easy... then she proceeded to punch both cards. I wanted to confront her right there... but we werent ready to fire them yet. So I just took a photo of both cards and wrote a statement of what I saw... that way they can be fired without severance, And if I'm recommending someone gets fired... I want to be 100% sure they're doing what I think theyre doing.

 

[ikarasu]

In the past we had the following:
1. Refused to work during a mandatory event that was understood in writing at time of hire. Filed for unemployment, granted, challenged, denied. Went through 3 rounds before she gave up.
2. Stopped showing up. When called said she would come in for more money. Nope.
3. Screwed up multiple jobs including spilling coffee on an order and just boxing it up to go out.
4. General not showing up to work.
5. Screwed up jobs on purpose for customers this employee didn't like.

Now we ran our schedule very unique. We had hours each week to fill and each employee could pick their schedule. Most just would skip work when they didn't want to come in.

Today we have no employees. Owner ran and much happier and less stress.

We have about 25ish employees total. I feel like I would fire half of them if they were my employees - I run a side business doing printing...and I told the owner I would NEVER hire an employee after being in charge of them, Even if the employee makes more than it costs in wasted material, screwing around on phones, etc.... They'd piss me off so much I'd fire them all. When I leave this job, I'll have a little group of customers built up and it'll just be me working, retiring at a young age making enough to get by!

 

[ikarasu]

In most states, you can fire anyone, at anytime, for anything... other than discrimination. You can fire them because they're ugly on a Tuesday. You can't fire them because they're black. Not sure how it works in Canada.

Punch card time clock? They have fingerprint time clocks now for no $$.

We're in an at will province... so we can fire them for anything - BUT if you fire them without cause... you have to pay a severance thats mandated by law. So for an employee who worked for 25 years, you'd have to pay them up to 2 years of wages. So getting rid of long term employees is expensive - It's pretty much 1 week of pay per year of service. 8 is the "Cap" under the legislation, but if they fight it in court they likely get 1 week per year. It's great because if you've worked for a few years, it gives your employee a bit of a nest egg to find a new job - but if you have really long term employees and need to lay one off... you're screwed.

Now if theyre fired for cause...you dont have to pay them a penny, and they can fight it in court all day, but theres zero risk to you. Most of the time employers here will just pay the severance so they dont have to deal with disgruntled employees trying to sue them - But if you find an employee stealing from you, it's worth the risk, maybe I'm just vengeful... but I'd rather them get $0.

 

[ikarasu]

Biometric (fingerprint) time clock might be money well spent.
and after firing AT LEAST 1 long time employee it would be a good message

We went with one of these - https://www.amazon.com/NGTeco-APP-B...3&sprefix=biometric+time+cloc,aps,168&sr=8-10 Was $250 CAD... which is nothing. I think our original time clock is like $1200. I know it's cheap chinese junk that may break in a year, but reviews are good...and it being cloudbased is for once a positive, if it breaks you can transfer all data to a new one with the click of a button, so if its garbage and gets replaced every year, not that big of a deal.

App based, fingerprint based... it has face scanning, etc. It'll be pretty much impossible to clock someone in - I think we're only enabling face, and fingerprint for now - If employees cry about privacy, we may enable app based for those who don't want to do fingerprint/face... It geofences it to the building, work wifi, and their phone...so should be protective enough.


I wish we didn't use a clock at all, my last shop we just assumed 8 hours - but we had an employee base that was responsible, and if they were late theyd come up to management and let us know. Now we have employees who start/stop all over the map, so itd be a logistical nightmare to do payroll without one.

 

[ikarasu]

Annnnd I think I replied to everyone and spammed the thread enough. Once we have the meeting in a few days and they get let go, I'll post a follow up - I expect it'll be pretty boring though. We have a ton of proof on the 1 employee, and I eye witnessed the other, I don't think they'd deny it.... I expect them to say they dont think theres anything wrong with it, and they were just doing it for convenience not to steal... but of course thats not the way management / payroll sees it.