18" by 9" Car Door Magnets

[Gino]

Yes it would, but I ask you this... Why turn away the work when almost 75% of the time I get a lot more profitable work from those clients. If I say I can't do it for those prices, they go to the next shop (there are 10 in my immediate area) and the rest of the work follows. To me the relationship with the client is worth more then massive profits on every job.

Case in point: I have a client, now my largest, that came to me 3+ years ago and asked if we could do 100 mesh fence banners 8' x 10' for $2.50/sq. At first I didn't want to take it, but we opted to do it and made about $2.00/ea fence banner. That client is now spending on average $300,000/year with us and we average 50% gross profit. All because we did something you guys are saying to turn away!

No one is telling you to turn it away. In fact, most are saying they don't understand your mathematics..... or reasoning.

Many times I have done exactly the same thing, taken on jobs which have sprouted into great customers and yield lotsa profit, but not for that huge of a loss.

 

[qmr55]

My old question is this...... would you want to do 10 trucks a week for $200 ea or 3 for a normal price and do far less work, use less material and have less headaches ??

Gino, I understand where you're coming from....but what if the only work one can get is 10 trucks a week for $200 ea? Maybe nobody wants to pay the "normal price" (which by the way doesn't exist in this business).

Work is work, the guy says hes making a profit on it. He's been in business longer than 2 years, so obviously its working for him. You guys need to step down off your high horses once in awhile and see that there are some times when you just need to do the work to keep things moving. R-E-L-A-X.

 

[Jillbeans]

...I hardly call $100 for a set of mags a high horse.
I'm still around $250 for two truck doors and lucky to get that.
Will I drop my prices? Hell no.
I'm not giving something away that is my whole life, the love of my life, and my purpose in life for the past 30 years. The past 7 years have been really tough. In fact, I have a "real" job now. It's a bitter pill most days...but then there are the days I sell a logo and make in 1 hour what takes me 32 hours at my place of employment.
I noticed the local hack who would underbid me by as much as $500 per job is no longer in business.
The "big" company who charges $75 for two doors in reflective is still cranking them out.
They only do signs as a side business. That's what I've turned to, also.
Most people these days buy all their signs, bizcards and banners on the internet for pennies on the dollar. You get what you settle for.

 

[phototec]

I don't know how to make magnetic signs for some of the prices quoted above. Gino's post makes the most sense to me. I guess if I took a piece of white mag and just handed it to the client and supplied them with a sharpie marker I could. Or if I only did black helvetica text, all caps, no kerning, no borders. I haven't sold a set of mags for less than $220 ever. What's the point? They are still a form of advertizing, they require some design time. Generally I am able to talk the client into permanent lettering on their vehicles.

Nice work!

Questions: How are you printing theses, on a flatbed?

How do you contour cut them?

 

[sardocs]

Phototec, Thanks for the compliment. I don't have a fancy flatbed, just an old sp300 and a Ioline plotter. Some are cut vinyl and some are printed. I cut out the mags with xacto knives.

 

[reQ]

Yup, they look awesome. And it would be crime to sell them for 17 bucks a pop

 

[Gino]

Gino, I understand where you're coming from....but what if the only work one can get is 10 trucks a week for $200 ea? Maybe nobody wants to pay the "normal price" (which by the way doesn't exist in this business).

Work is work, the guy says hes making a profit on it. He's been in business longer than 2 years, so obviously its working for him. You guys need to step down off your high horses once in awhile and see that there are some times when you just need to do the work to keep things moving. R-E-L-A-X.

C'mon..... you're smarter than that. :Oops:

We all will do stuff at a loss sometimes, if it's all we can get. Ya try not to and you try to better yourself, but this guy is saying he's on target to reach near 3 million this year...... and he's d!cking around with $16 magnetics ?? On a regular basis ??

I'm not on a high horse, nor am I making fun of this guy or you, but the numbers he's spouting out, just don't add up..... at all.

Is this the kinda information you want to go out representing this industry ?? Jump in and do crap for $16. a pop and make a coupla million in 5 years ?? Of course not.

I love it when 6, 7 or 8 trucks come through a week, along with a bunch of flatbed printed items, banners and a store or two's worth of interior lettering with a few real estate signs and instals. I love hearing that stuff humming along and making money. The more the merrier, but nowhere am I or anyone else I know, whether in the business 15 years or 5 minutes making stuff for $16. a pop. and reporting sales of 600k with 35% profits.

Heck, I just got an e-mail a few minutes ago to meet with a customer to go set up for a convention we do every year. We don't have a cent invested and we'll get about $15,000. We just do the labor at such a pace he is saving money. We also store the whole thing in our premises and rent space to him. Rental income, yet.

Who do you know who will set up a game plan and do a lot of work for a good buck, then do roll after roll of magnetics for $16 each to keep people busy ?? No one is more than likely your answer. Does some cheap-Os get through ?? Sure, but as seldom as possible. That's my question. How can someone set up to make big bucks, have a system down pat for such crap work ?? Why would anyone get so happy..... and defensive about making signs or anything so cheap ??

 

[Christian @ Visual Graphx]

C'mon..... you're smarter than that. :Oops:

We all will do stuff at a loss sometimes, if it's all we can get. Ya try not to and you try to better yourself, but this guy is saying he's on target to reach near 3 million this year...... and he's d!cking around with $16 magnetics ?? On a regular basis ??

I'm not on a high horse, nor am I making fun of this guy or you, but the numbers he's spouting out, just don't add up..... at all.

Is this the kinda information you want to go out representing this industry ?? Jump in and do crap for $16. a pop and make a coupla million in 5 years ?? Of course not.

I love it when 6, 7 or 8 trucks come through a week, along with a bunch of flatbed printed items, banners and a store or two's worth of interior lettering with a few real estate signs and instals. I love hearing that stuff humming along and making money. The more the merrier, but nowhere am I or anyone else I know, whether in the business 15 years or 5 minutes making stuff for $16. a pop. and reporting sales of 600k with 35% profits.

Heck, I just got an e-mail a few minutes ago to meet with a customer to go set up for a convention we do every year. We don't have a cent invested and we'll get about $15,000. We just do the labor at such a pace he is saving money. We also store the whole thing in our premises and rent space to him. Rental income, yet.

Who do you know who will set up a game plan and do a lot of work for a good buck, then do roll after roll of magnetics for $16 each to keep people busy ?? No one is more than likely your answer. Does some cheap-Os get through ?? Sure, but as seldom as possible. That's my question. How can someone set up to make big bucks, have a system down pat for such crap work ?? Why would anyone get so happy..... and defensive about making signs or anything so cheap ??

I never said I was on track to make $3 million this year, your stilted high horse takes a number I posted and extrapolates it to a gigantic figure under the assumption that I can consistently hit that number.

I'm thankful to do any work even when you people want to push it away because your nose is in the clouds. I bust my butt to make a buck and I'm happy to do it, I travel the whole southwest for my largest client for their work... Why? No one else will, because its not worth their time. I guess I value my time differently then others, my only goal for my company is a safe healthy family who has a decent life.

We dont have employees, its me and my brother after losing my dad this year to cancer. We took a small idea and turned it in to what it is. Sorry I **** on your ideals for this industry, but you know what refer All those cheap jobs my way... I'll do it if its beneath you, no problem for me.

Every one bitches my generation has no work ethic, well I'm finding the older generations seem to be a bit elitist, almighty and quite frankly over values their "talents". We are now in an age that those who have wanted now have a chance to take away what you take for granted, their presence is growing and its no longer fighting for the scraps... They can take the lions share.

 

[player]

My condolences about the loss of your father.

 

[Christian @ Visual Graphx]

^ Sorry about your loss.

Thank you, I guess my defensiveness stems from that. My dad tried his darnedest to teach us his ethics, he believed in things can be mutually beneficial and it isn't all about money.

I'm sure I'm wrong in the whole way I conduct my business and maybe one day I'll change, I guess what I see as a success is a struggle for others. Since taking on this business venture 6 years ago, I've learned to value things a lot more.

 

[Rick]

2CT MEDIA.... just keep doing what your doing. Seems to
me that when you take one part of the industry, like digital
printing, master it, get a few regular clients, you can make
some decent cash while being extremely competitive. I'm
sure your competition hates you, but that's the breaks.

i don't think you are representative of the sign industry. The
sign industry is a hell of a lot more than digital print. You seem like
more of a replicator. The bottom line is what drives your business.
In the 6 years you have been doing this, and getting up to 600k I would
say you are a success. There is a limit to staying small... once
you have to get employees, it may not be so easy... but only time
will tell.

As an old **** elitist with 4 very hard working boys around your age, I find your
generalizations disturbing. You are gonna be old one day, make mistakes
and hopefully learn from them. I learned one thing at this age... pressing
print is not a lot of fun. I've worked at a place similar to yours, we had to
catalog vinyl usage and mistakes to make sure we were profitable.

My condolences, watching my father and mother going through their illness
is heartbreaking.

 

[Gino]

Sorry to hear of your father's passing.

 

[Christian @ Visual Graphx]

Rick, my generalization is wrong. Its not everyone in older generations just like not every one 30 and younger are lazy.

We do a whole lot more then hit print. Attached is one of our most recent projects we have completed. We build marquees and walls for rides, Make LED signs for the fair industry, and a whole lot more.

It will get a lot harder with employees in many ways, and I'm looking forward to the challenge.

Thank you all for the condolences, I'm not looking for pity. He popped in to my mind when I was typing and since it's so fresh (Jan 3) it came out.

 

[Desert_Signs]

2CT is good people. Really sorry to hear about your dad, he was a really nice guy.

2CT, keep your head up. You know what works for you and what you have to sell to make money. I have a feeling that some of the people poking at you only dream of 600K a year in sales.

 

[CrAkD]

...I hardly call $100 for a set of mags a high horse.
I'm still around $250 for two truck doors and lucky to get that.
Will I drop my prices? Hell no.
I'm not giving something away that is my whole life, the love of my life, and my purpose in life for the past 30 years. The past 7 years have been really tough. In fact, I have a "real" job now. It's a bitter pill most days...but then there are the days I sell a logo and make in 1 hour what takes me 32 hours at my place of employment.
I noticed the local hack who would underbid me by as much as $500 per job is no longer in business.
The "big" company who charges $75 for two doors in reflective is still cranking them out.
They only do signs as a side business. That's what I've turned to, also.
Most people these days buy all their signs, bizcards and banners on the internet for pennies on the dollar. You get what you settle for.

Maybe im naive since I'm just starting out but what I got from this post is you'd rather work for someone else rather than lower your prices? I am in the reverse situation as yours I'm just starting my own printing business on the side well working for someone else. As soon as I can get enough steady business and work solely for myself I'll put in my notice at work. I can't imagine willingly getting a part time job rather than lowering my prices a little to continue to be free of building someone else's dream and building my own.

 

[Jillbeans]

...if you think that I will letter 2 truck doors for $50 after 30 years in business, you're mistaken.
That's what my "competition" charges. I live in an odd area of extreme poverty/rural mixed with yuppies. There are about 10 shops in a 5 mile radius of me, only 3 of which are long-term such as myself.
The hacks come in, wreck my pricing structure, then move on or close up.
Everyone is fighting for the same tiny slice of pie.

The cost of materials and gas has increased considerably, as well as my skills and knowledge, since 1985.
I refuse to lower my prices, why further devalue a dying industry?
I wish I could remove my emotion from my business persona. I wish I didn't care about good layout and design. Nobody else seems to.

I got a real job because I enjoy getting a regular paycheck.
I still do work for my loyal customers, but there is not much to be had in this Walmart mentality world.
This will be my last year in this business. As soon as my house sells, I will get a full-time job and just do signs as a hobby.

Oddly, I donate a lot of my time and talent to three charity events. The things I paint there bring in way more money than they would coming from my shop. Sometimes it p!sses me off, but it's a good creative outlet.

 

[Christian @ Visual Graphx]

...if you think that I will letter 2 truck doors for $50 after 30 years in business, you're mistaken.
That's what my "competition" charges. I live in an odd area of extreme poverty/rural mixed with yuppies. There are about 10 shops in a 5 mile radius of me, only 3 of which are long-term such as myself.
The hacks come in, wreck my pricing structure, then move on or close up.
Everyone is fighting for the same tiny slice of pie.

The cost of materials and gas has increased considerably, as well as my skills and knowledge, since 1985.
I refuse to lower my prices, why further devalue a dying industry?
I wish I could remove my emotion from my business persona. I wish I didn't care about good layout and design. Nobody else seems to.

I got a real job because I enjoy getting a regular paycheck.
I still do work for my loyal customers, but there is not much to be had in this Walmart mentality world.
This will be my last year in this business. As soon as my house sells, I will get a full-time job and just do signs as a hobby.

Oddly, I donate a lot of my time and talent to three charity events. The things I paint there bring in way more money than they would coming from my shop. Sometimes it p!sses me off, but it's a good creative outlet.

First I want to say I'm sorry you are going out of this business.

I don't want this to come off as an attack or devaluing of you or your business. I'm interested in a discussion about this industry.
Your post had me puzzled. I was always taught that we live in an adapt or die world, economy, life. Isn't part of adaption the adjustment of pricing mentalities based on market needs? I'm not saying that its a race to the bottom price wise, but what I am saying is... you yourself said your area is low income, which means your market demands a pricing structure suited to that income level. The businesses in your area don't have the income or demand like other markets so their budgets are lower and unless your primary target is outside of your immediate region your structure has to match.

My business target is far from my area, and in my area (40 - 50k residents, primarily small businesses, average household income $42k) has a much lower pricing threshold then a neighboring city where the median income jumps to $55k. Our primary business model targets entities that have annual incomes in excess of $10 million and they cater to a broad market. So when I get $50 for a trio of small magnets in my immediate market, my primary client pays me $20,000 for a wall project or $3,000 for a LED turbolight sign.

I ask this simply because i'm trying to understand if its emotion and lack of adaption driving you out of business or just your region can't support you and the competition?

 

[Jillbeans]

It's actually both.
I love signs and am very passionate about making them.
I've devoted thirty years of my life to this business. Raised three kids by myself while making signs from home. Traveled the world to Letterhead meets for 20 years.

My prices are not high. They are actually a lot cheaper than some of the people on here get. I do know regional pricing trends because I've followed them for over 20 years.
But I cannot compete with others who literally work for free. Would you?

My market is totally saturated with other "sign makers" who often don't even know how to spell, who use cheap materials, have zero layout skills, who sell prints that fade in 6 months. My signs have lasted for years. Once I make a sign for someone I won't see them again for 7 to 10 years. I put out a good product at a decent price.

In 1998 I got my first plotter, and taught myself how to use it. At first I was doing OK, until lots of people got plotters, too. I tried to specialize by doing high-end sign work like gilding and dimensional stuff, but it didn't sell well. I am not selling something for $50 that I have $45 in materials in (just an example) that took me 8 hours to make.

The writing is on the wall, for many years it was a good run, but I have lost the race to the bottom of the pricing barrel. Why beat a dead horse? I'll still do logo work and paint small novelty signs, but as for having a business, nah, I'm done.

 

[DirtyD]

I charge 65 for a set of 12 x 24 magnets 1 color or full color - simple design - Complex or more than 30min $100 set

I just quoted:

50 sets @ $40ea
100 sets @ $30ea


Is that too low for you guys?

I don't think it is, the customer supplied artwork

 

[Christian @ Visual Graphx]

It's actually both.
I love signs and am very passionate about making them.
I've devoted thirty years of my life to this business. Raised three kids by myself while making signs from home. Traveled the world to Letterhead meets for 20 years.

My prices are not high. They are actually a lot cheaper than some of the people on here get. I do know regional pricing trends because I've followed them for over 20 years.
But I cannot compete with others who literally work for free. Would you?

My market is totally saturated with other "sign makers" who often don't even know how to spell, who use cheap materials, have zero layout skills, who sell prints that fade in 6 months. My signs have lasted for years. Once I make a sign for someone I won't see them again for 7 to 10 years. I put out a good product at a decent price.

In 1998 I got my first plotter, and taught myself how to use it. At first I was doing OK, until lots of people got plotters, too. I tried to specialize by doing high-end sign work like gilding and dimensional stuff, but it didn't sell well. I am not selling something for $50 that I have $45 in materials in (just an example) that took me 8 hours to make.

The writing is on the wall, for many years it was a good run, but I have lost the race to the bottom of the pricing barrel. Why beat a dead horse? I'll still do logo work and paint small novelty signs, but as for having a business, nah, I'm done.

That makes 100% sense. Arizona is much of the same way, but this market has grown savvy I believe to the lowball alternatives vs paying for what you get. Thats why we charge $50 - $100 to design magnets, its also why our clients are willing to pay at least that. If we were in other less saturated markets I could see the price climbing significantly. I'm also understanding that your competing as a hand artist/sign crafter vs printers which is a losing battle in the instant gratification age.

This post chain has really got me thinking, maybe I should reevaluate what we do, how we do it, and why we do it. Maybe we are leaving too much on the table, maybe 2 projects paying well is better then 4, maybe I should just do the big projects and shut down more often throughout the year.

Fear of failure has always been a motivator of mine, I want to grow and be successful (my perception of success) but I also am not a cut throat business person so I wonder if I will be painted in to a similar corner at some point.