A Question of Ethics.....

[studebaker]

I have a new customer that came to my shop and saw a Hydrographic pattern we were printing for another customer, and wanted to buy 100 meters of that pattern for his dipping service. I created the pattern for customer number 1, and haven't agreed to or discussed any exclusivity with him. The question is, do I need to contact him for his permission to sell the pattern to other customers? The pattern is a general Marine Corp emblem pattern. Is this pattern generic enough to not worry about copyright for Customer number one?

 

[Billct2]

Unless the first customer paid for exclusive rights they don't own it, but the bigger question is do you have the right to use the Marine Corps logo?

 

[studebaker]

Fortunately, the Armed Services are glad to have their logos used... Free advertising.

 

[jaylem]

custmer's point of view

Great question. I guess I would put myself in the customer's shoes. How would I feel if I paid someone to develop a pattern and had seen it used somewhere else?

If you did use it for customer #2 and customer #1 called you about it, what would you say? Sorry, you don't have exclusive rights to that pattern. How would that effect your relationship with customer #1 and your reputation? Regardless of whether there is a true infraction of ethics, if customer #1 gets upset they could bad mouth you and tarnish your rep.

How much do you stand to gain by using the pattern for customer #2. Risk/Reward. You risk upsetting upsetting #1 to make #2 happy.

You could call #1 and ask them. Maybe #1 could get a store credit to allow you to use the pattern for #2. The cost of the store credit would need to be built into the cost of the job for #2.

 

[webguru]

Fortunately, the Armed Services are glad to have their logos used... Free advertising.

This statement is far from being true. You might want to check into it further. I deal with a minting company and they could not use the seals from the different branches of service for a period of time until they worked out a licensing agreement.

 

[Billct2]

http://www.hqmc.marines.mil/divpa/Units/MarineCorpsTrademarkLicensingProgram/CommercialUse.aspx

 

[studebaker]

Thank you for a comprehensive reply., I will follow your suggestion!

 

[studebaker]

Custom Hydrographic Prints

http://www.hqmc.marines.mil/divpa/Units/MarineCorpsTrademarkLicensingProgram/CommercialUse.aspx

There you go! An answer to the other question of the use of the Marine Corp logo. I will find out about the licensing the Logo for the hydrographic film pattern if it becomes popular! Right now it's a one off for one customer. I may have customer number two get the licensing directly from the Marine Corp. for his benefit if he's serious.

I have low expectation of the pattern becoming popular though, when customers come to me for custom hydrographic prints, it's usually for their company logo, or to shut up their customer about the high cost of having custom film printed in $3500.00 batches in China.

 

[jfiscus]

Question #1: Did Customer A pay you for coming up with the pattern itself (a design fee), or just pay for the end product? If you kinda "threw in the design" for free as it was not really much artwork time and just charged for the final print/piece then Customer A has no room to complain. It appears they did not contract you to develop an exclusive pattern so far, but it kinda all comes down to how you billed them.

Question #2: How hard would it be to make a very similar (but different) pattern to the first one so that both customers had their own separate yet similar pattern?
That is the easiest option to explore, and would make both customers happy.

 

[Gino]

I don't think this has anything to do with ethics, but more a business practice.

• First, whether you're on a large scale or a small one-off..... making these were wrong from the git go.
• Not explaining to a customer beforehand you can copy their complete design and sell it to someone else is also bad business.
• Defending what you did and are about to do is also wrong.

I don't know how long you've been in business, but you broke some very fundamental rules of any business, regardless of how long or who you are in business.


Perhaps, you don't know right from wrong, but to actually say, they like the free advertisement, it's a small job and can I copy this for someone else sounds like a very shallow business model.

 

[CanuckSigns]

I can't see how the USMC logo can be copywritten, as far as I can tell it should be in the public domain, just like the flag and other national government symbols, your tax dollars pay for the Armed Forces, therefore the armed forces logos should be public domain no?

 

[Baz]

I can't see how the USMC logo can be copywritten, as far as I can tell it should be in the public domain, just like the flag and other national government symbols, your tax dollars pay for the Armed Forces, therefore the armed forces logos should be public domain no?

Actually this reminds me of a time when i was asked by a contractor to wrap concrete support beams in an underground parking garage for DND.

The contractor and the department heads wanted the Canadian digital cammo pattern (it has a name but i can't remember off hand). It was impossible to get a high res file from their art department and we were told that it would not be approved for this use. They told me they were verry strict with it's use.

This is in Canada though ... Maybe different down south.

 

[studebaker]

HydroGraphics Film Printing

Question #1: Did Customer A pay you for coming up with the pattern itself (a design fee), or just pay for the end product? If you kinda "threw in the design" for free as it was not really much artwork time and just charged for the final print/piece then Customer A has no room to complain. It appears they did not contract you to develop an exclusive pattern so far, but it kinda all comes down to how you billed them.

Question #2: How hard would it be to make a very similar (but different) pattern to the first one so that both customers had their own separate yet similar pattern?
That is the easiest option to explore, and would make both customers happy.

Thank you for the advice, I just threw it together from his description without charging him for the artwork. And yes I could change it a little for the second guy, but I have been admonished, rightly, to get a licence for the Marine corp logo before I make it again for the second customer.

 

[J Hill Designs]

The use of Marine Corps trademarks for commercial purposes, including reproduction on merchandise, is expressly prohibited unless the producer completes a license agreement with the Marine Corps. Use is governed by the terms of the agreement.

This means you are infringing, even with customer 1...

 

[Gino]

Actually this reminds me of a time when i was asked by a contractor to wrap concrete support beams in an underground parking garage for DND.

The contractor and the department heads wanted the Canadian digital cammo pattern (it has a name but i can't remember off hand). It was impossible to get a high res file from their art department and we were told that it would not be approved for this use. They told me they were verry strict with it's use.

This is in Canada though ... Maybe different down south.

Yeah, down here we use guns, up there, they use chain saws.


No, there are some very strict rules when it comes to using that kinda stuff. Problem is, they never know who is gonna use it and how/what context. While it's usually very easy to get the rights, they have to protect these emblems.

 

[studebaker]

Hydrographic Film printing....

I can't see how the USMC logo can be copywritten, as far as I can tell it should be in the public domain, just like the flag and other national government symbols, your tax dollars pay for the Armed Forces, therefore the armed forces logos should be public domain no?

That was my first impression also, but I've been put to rights with links to the Marine Corp licensing agency. Although, I won't recall what's already been printed. I think he has already dipped onto his motorcycle.

 

[JimmyG]

Marine Corp is very specific about copyright...Dept of Navy does provide high rez jpg's of ship crests, promotional graphics and other emblems...Other DoD departments are not so inclined as the Navy...You just need to research first...

 

[Baz]

Yeah, down here we use guns, up there, they use chain saws. .

You make due with what's available! This is what strict gun control gives you. LOL!

 

[Gino]

maybe this will help :

Aren’t Marine Corps insignia in the public domain?

No, they are not. Please see 10 USC 7881, as well as 15 U.S.C. 1125 and 10 U.S.C. 2260. In addition to being protected by specific statute, Marine Corps insignia are considered to be trademarks and, as such, are not to be used by third parties without permission. While it is true that works (such as written works) created by Federal employees are generally not protected by copyright, and are in the public domain, this does not apply to trademarks. Also, under 10 U.S.C. 2260, the U.S. Marine Corps may license trademarks and may retain and expend fees received from such licensing, to be used to cover the costs of securing trademark registrations, the costs of operating our trademark licensing program, and to be used for Marine Corps morale, welfare, and recreation activities.


In most cases, by using it without permission you are possibly creating the impression that you or whatever you represent, whether it be political, business or otherwise is endorsed by or affiliated with the USMC in some way, or that the USMC has chosen your situation over other possibilities. You are more than welcome, to simply and accurately state that you are a Marine Corps veteran, that's fine, that's a fact. But using the EGA which is a trademark of the USMC, and protected by Federal law (please see 10 USC 7881) is something you may not do. This is consistent with the Marine Corps Uniform Regulations which clearly states that the wearing of the uniform in a political context is strictly prohibited. Please see Section 11002(1)(a)(2) and (3) of the Marine Corps Uniform Regulations.

This list goes on and on and on and on........................................

 

[Gino]

You make due with what's available! This is what strict gun control gives you. LOL!

Did you.... or anyone else see that article about the tree guy up there. Road Rage at it's finest. It's all over the internet by now.