Acrylic outgassing... How long?

[Gino]

Rocket scientists seem to believe in the mystical magical effect:
http://outgassing.nasa.gov/cgi/uncgi/sectionc/sectionc.sh
Acrylic looks like it is at the upper edge of the % required to meet the classification of a low outgassing material.

"One must be aware that these data have been collected over a period of 25 years. It is likely that some materials have changed over this time span. The data can be used as a guide in selecting (with a fair degree of confidence) low-outgassing materials for space flight applications."
They test in a vacuum applying heat so your mileage may vary.

wayne k
guam usa

Not saying it doesn't take place in other areas or mediums, but not in the form we use our products in the sigh industry. They changed that over a 1/4 century ago. Even then, what was changed was the formula and what comes out. However, there is no amount of that much outgassing in our substrates.

Another way of looking at it. If we, in the sign industry, experiencing this outgassing phenomenon were to be consistent, would these people be experiencing it each and everytime it happened and wouldn't it look exactly the same everytime ?? Why does one guy have it heavy in one corner, or another person have it in lotsa small bubbles and another person have huge blister looking things. Next one they do has nothing. Then they have a two sided sign and one side is bad the the other side isn't as bad ?? There is little to no uniformity to hold your outgassing theory as the culprit.

 

[GAC05]

Gino I think the study helps point out that there are variables that are outside the control of the mounting technique of the installer.

Aside from that it is hard to argue with rocket scientists.
They get paid to don white lab coats, pocket protectors & black rimmed glasses - carry clipboards and poke things with their pens.


wayne k
guam usa

 

[Gino]

Honestly, I can't access your link.

 

[GAC05]

Gino I think I fixed it.
Should work here:
http://outgassing.nasa.gov/

Another thing this proves is that rocket scientists should not design web pages.....
or graphics.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Terremoto]

Oh yeah.... and as I said..... just because it's written on 3M's, RTape or anyone else's website, doesn't mean it's true.

So you would suggest I believe you then??? Are you always this opinionated???

It's about 99.9% someone didn't get all the air out from under their vinyl properly and the air was evenly distributed and created bubbles.

Outgassing, trapped moisture, magic gas, call it what you will. The issue of severe bubbling (Pickle skinned is merely a descriptive term I use) is a very real problem that has little to do with how the vinyl was laid down or who laid it down.

Pig headed is a descriptive term I would use to describe your dogged determination to lay "99.9%" of the blame on the vinyl application technique and/or the vinyl installer.

Don't you guys ever think that if these very gasses migrating to the surface were indeed coming to the surface and being trapped by the vinyl, they would give off a lot of possible toxins when popped ?? Don't you think these gasses would interfere with the adhesives on the other side of the vinyl and make it fail evenly and completely ?? Don't you think for a moment the gasses would take the path of least resistence and go out the back ??..... or the edges ??

Now there's a research project for you Gino. Maybe you could prove to one and all that 3m, RTape, et al don't know what they're talking about. Maybe you could win yourself a Nobel Prize. Just don't hold your nose too close to the bubbles when you pop them or you just might win a Darwin.

 

[Baz]

The only time i had bubbles appear after an install was when i applied chrome vinyl to a freshly painted truck. Other than that ... If you get bubbles the next day on vinyl that was applied to a plexiglass sheet, my opinion is you didn't press hard enough, did not have a sharp squeegee, did not completeley remove your application fluid. If you ran your vinyl and plastic through a laminator you should do a quick once over with a squeegee after to check if any bubbles show up. If so then you should increase your pressure.

I never give time to outgas on plexi. I peel the paper off and letter it right away. Never really had a problem with it.

 

[Terremoto]

I peel the paper off and letter it right away. Never really had a problem with it.

That's probably the thing to do. Doesn't give your substrate a chance to absorb moisture that can be trapped under your vinyl only to cause problems later on when it's out in the blazing sun.

 

[Gino]

So you would suggest I believe you then??? Are you always this opinionated???

As I've said to many before you....don't even try to put words in my mouth. If you can't comprehend, don't get all pissy and tell me what you THINK I'm suggesting or saying. I said nothing of the sorts. Read it again, Terre
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Outgassing, trapped moisture, magic gas, call it what you will. The issue of severe bubbling (Pickle skinned is merely a descriptive term I use) is a very real problem that has little to do with how the vinyl was laid down or who laid it down.

It has everything to do with the way it was laid down from faulty tools, to improper techniques to just plain not knowing how to do it. Picles don't just appear because of a minute amount of outgassing which is unmeasurable by any standards is taking place because you think so. The pickles have to be placed there and those doing it can learn better and more effective ways to stop their pickling from happening.
​

Pig headed is a descriptive term I would use to describe your dogged determination to lay "99.9%" of the blame on the vinyl application technique and/or the vinyl installer.

I think you have it bassackwards. I truly believe your allowing your pig headedness about YOUR theory is only keeping the masses down and blaming something else other than themselves. Yeah, that's the way to teach those not doing it correctly.
​

Now there's a research project for you Gino. Maybe you could prove to one and all that 3m, RTape, et al don't know what they're talking about. Maybe you could win yourself a Nobel Prize. Just don't hold your nose too close to the bubbles when you pop them or you just might win a Darwin.

I think you should understand how the system works before you go around making fun of others when you haven't a clue as to what your saying or writing. Do you realize that there were quite a few people responsible for A V E R Y's rescinding their three year stance on application failure and finally give into the masses ?? I was in Atlantic City at a show when I did my part and nearly got kicked out by security for standing up for the sign shops of the country. Yes, through perseverance and constant pressure, sign makers throughout the country and the world got A V E R Y to give in and give back to our community.
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Terre.....I'm not arguing that this stuff doesn't outgas. It probably does to some minute degree, but not to the point that it's causing this much problem in forming this many bubbles for some people and absolutely none for others. For the most part, we're all using the same vinyls and the same substrates.... the only difference is... we can't see the tools and the techniques each other are using and therefore that seems to be the common denominator. If you wanna believe it's some phenomenon outgassing causing only vinyl to bubble up and not paint, screen ink, protective coating, tape, painters tape, any of our vinyl applications and/or whatever else one might stick on there, you go right ahead.... as for me......... not so much.

Gotta go... have to go buy some Christmas presents and the Goddess doesn't want me home too late.
​

 

[Terremoto]

Terre.....I'm not arguing that this stuff doesn't outgas.

Really!

It probably does to some minute degree, but not to the point that it's causing this much problem in forming this many bubbles for some people and absolutely none for others. For the most part, we're all using the same vinyls and the same substrates.... the only difference is... we can't see the tools and the techniques each other are using and therefore that seems to be the common denominator.

I disagree! I worked in one shop - concrete slab floor - likely no vapor barrier under the slab - near a swamp. We bought our Lexan on a big wooden spool that would last us anywhere from 4 - 6 months before we had to replace it with a new roll. Had an ongoing problem with the bubbling, blistering, pickle skinning - pick your favorite term - and we had fifteen people working there - lots of different styles and techniques to the vinyl application.

Worked at another place in the same town - small shop - just me doing the vinyl application (and pretty much everything else) - not a single failure. The shop is always warm and no evidence of moisture coming through the concrete slab floor.

There's a lot more to this issue than application technique or applicator guy/gal. You can beak off all you want about it being the fault with the technique or vinyl installer but I'll flat out tell you you're 99.9% wrong and there's plenty of industry specific data to back up what I say - I've even supplied links to some earlier in this thread.

To me it sounds like you're arguing just to hear yourself heard.

 

[Techman]

plenty of industry specific data to back up what I say

There is plenty of in field usage data to counter the idea of "outgassing" as a genuine problem. I would never believe there is enough "space" in the surface of a plastic panel to hide enough water vapor to cause a friggin blister problem in a plastic panel. That explanation holds no value for explaining the same problems with blister skin on glass or aluminum panels.

Test it this way. Next time anyone encounters one of those phantom outgassers ....Let a noob install part and let an experienced install part. See four yourself as I did.

I lived in the honey island swamp for a lifetime. My office was just 1.1 miles from the Pearl river swamp. Our ground water table was a mere 1 ft. The daily humidity was averaging around 98% with 95 degree temps. You could paint latex and wait hours for it to dry. We never saw a single outgas panel. We saw plenty of re-do's because of the noob factor.

 

[Bly]

I have on numerous times seen polyester films bubble on acrylic. Lay it by hand, laminator or on the beach at sunset, you can get bubbles with chromes...

Yep. Seen that myself too.

 

[signmeup]

There is plenty of in field usage data to counter the idea of "outgassing" as a genuine problem. I would never believe there is enough "space" in the surface of a plastic panel to hide enough water vapor to cause a friggin blister problem in a plastic panel. That explanation holds no value for explaining the same problems with blister skin on glass or aluminum panels.

Test it this way. Next time anyone encounters one of those phantom outgassers ....Let a noob install part and let an experienced install part. See four yourself as I did.

I lived in the honey island swamp for a lifetime. My office was just 1.1 miles from the Pearl river swamp. Our ground water table was a mere 1 ft. The daily humidity was averaging around 98% with 95 degree temps. You could paint latex and wait hours for it to dry. We never saw a single outgas panel. We saw plenty of re-do's because of the noob factor.

Various plastics have a moisture content much like wood or concrete. Styrene can be particularly troublesome. My comments were only meant as an interesting aside. There needs to be significant heating for this moisture to become a problem. (the sun won't do it) My observations were in the field of vacu-forming not laying vinyl. This moisture will blow bubbles in the surface of the plastic sheet itself... no need for layer of some other material. As far as outgassing at room temperature... I'd have to see it to believe it.

Another interesting aside is that wood is largely cellulose, which was used to manufacture celluloid... the first thermo-formable plastic.

 

[gerald]

If you spray with Mathews or other professional sign paint that uses a reducer and put vinyl on too soon, you will get bubbles. They solvents evaporate and that is part of the curing process. If you lay vinyl before this process is complete, you will get bubbles.

The small amount that does evaporate is not harmful I don't think, just enough to raise the vinyl.

For a simple test, spray some Mathews or other solvent based paint on a piece of aluminum. Come in the next morning and lay some vinyl on it. Come back in 24 hrs and check it out.

I have never had any real problems on acrylics but I have seen the paint issues first hand. The colder it is the longer the paint has to cure unless you have the facilities to heat cure.

 

[Gino]

I will always fess up..........................

Had a long discussion with my major supplier, this morning.

He said there is a certain amount of moisture in the Poly-carbs which most of the time does not escape before laminating with the protective coating. This moisture is in fact, trapped in there by the protective covering, and if the wrapper isn’t removed far enough in advance of laying down vinyl, there is a chance of getting a stucco type look to the vinyl. For some unknown reason…. and he questioned it also, why doesn’t the laminate have any ill-effects, their answer is just…… it doesn’t because we use a different substrate.

Anyway, I asked him why I haven’t noticed it in our shop over the years ??
​

He says, we’re doing it right. We remove the laminate a few days before prepping or applying anything. This gives 99% of the moisture a chance to disappear.

Also, you won’t have this problem with acrylics or modifieds…. and we primarily use modified. The larger signs we will use the poly-carbs, but we follow the instructions.

He went on to say if you see anything larger than a pinhead…. that is not outgassing, but application failure. You won’t see bubbles from outgassing. Any bubbles are your own fault, not outgassing.

So, unless I’m wrong, doing it correctly, you still won’t see any bubbles. However, if you are the kind of shop that gets the substrates in, peels off the laminate and puts the vinyl down within minutes to an hour or two…. you might see this phenomenon of outgassing.

:Oops: So, I guess an apology is indeed in need for Terre for there is such an animal. To Terre, I apologize, for not recognizing that although it does exist…. as I said it did in a very minute state….if you do it wrong, you will get pickles. For all of those doing it correctly, you still won’t have a problem.

• Did you know that if you squeegee your vinyl down with the palm of your hand, it will also fail ??
• Did you know that not using a sharp squeegee it will fail ??
• Did you know that not removing air will cause this strange outgassing ??
• Did you know that it is as easy as 1-2-3 to fug anything up and blame it on something else if you’re not doing something right ??

Well, I’m sorry, but I still stick to my guns, if you follow the proper procedure for anything and use the proper tools and techniques, you will almost always be successful. Use bad habits or cut corners and it will always come back to bite you in the crapper whether you have one term right or not.

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[Techman]

He also said anything more than a pinhead is application failure.

 

[signmeup]

There is virtually no moisture in freshly made and properly stored plastic sheets.
Do a search for "manufacturing rigid plastic sheet" and you will see how it is made. Here is a link to one such video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKCLG9l7ek8
The raw plastic resin is heated to the "plastic" state (about 400 degrees for lexan) and squeezed out between two dies (rollers) the protective layer we remove is applied as the plastic moves further through the machine and has cooled a bit. There is no chance for moisture to be introduced until after the plastic has been formed and cooled. Improper storage conditions like leaving it out in the rain or in a damp basement can allow moisture to be absorbed by various plastics. Again, this has nothing to do with so called "outgassing". The heat required to damage the substrate or anything applied to it is far higher than anything a sign will ever see... especially before it ever leaves the shop. (with the exception of a vac-formed pan face)

Removing the liner several days before using the plastic is inviting moisture to enter it more freely. Not to mention allowing dust to settle on it.

Whatever is causing your "pickle skin" bubbling vinyl the next day is not coming from within the plastic sheet.

 

[Gino]

There is virtually no moisture in freshly made and properly stored plastic sheets.
Do a search for "manufacturing rigid plastic sheet" and you will see how it is made. Here is a link to one such video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKCLG9l7ek8
The raw plastic resin is heated to the "plastic" state (about 400 degrees for lexan) and squeezed out between two dies (rollers) the protective layer we remove is applied as the plastic moves further through the machine and has cooled a bit. There is no chance for moisture to be introduced until after the plastic has been formed and cooled. Improper storage conditions like leaving it out in the rain or in a damp basement can allow moisture to be absorbed by various plastics. Again, this has nothing to do with so called "outgassing". The heat required to damage the substrate or anything applied to it is far higher than anything a sign will ever see... especially before it ever leaves the shop. (with the exception of a vac-formed pan face)

Removing the liner several days before using the plastic is inviting moisture to enter it more freely. Not to mention allowing dust to settle on it.

Whatever is causing your "pickle skin" bubbling vinyl the next day is not coming from within the plastic sheet.

Okay then. Why did I get my butt reamed out when I said that ?? :ROFLMAO:

 

[Gino]

Hey....

I just watched that movie and I guess you didn't see this................... almost 3 minutes into it.​

 

[signmeup]

That explains a lot! Funny stuff Gino...

Actually, I was addressing this statement from your supplier, "He said there is a certain amount of moisture in the Poly-carbs which most of the time does not escape before laminating with the protective coating. This moisture is in fact, trapped in there by the protective covering,"
As can be seen from the manufacturing process this is impossible. The protective skin is applied before the sheet is fully cooled. Furthermore, it would take far longer for moisture to enter a rigid material like lexan than the manufacturer would want to have it laying around... getting dusty.

 

[Techman]

So we now see there is a lot of pure speculation going on which goes on a lot in our line of work.

Sometimes someone will come along and actually test some of those old wives tales to see what is fact or fiction. I wish we could do more of it. Then no one could give out a lot of incestuous yet false information passed around within the group.