AI Rant

[signexpertai]

at this stage, ai is great for social media stuff and good-looking artwork, but not that much for vectorized technical images. But with how fast it is improving, we might have AI sign designers in the future. some companies like dezigner.ai or www.signcustomiser.com are already trying to train ai specifically to design signs but time will tell.

 

[Bobby H]

All with their limitations, finding people that can still use the abstraction, but when necessary get in there and do ASM/C/C++ when necessary is getting harder and harder even not considering "AI" in the mix. And that goes in the graphics world as well. I know people in the graphics world that are not only dependent on some of the more higher level abstractions in programs, but are dependent on a specific implementation of it as well (live/power trace being one, in embroidery it would be the same thing, but their auto conversion program, which none have really good results unless the source fits a very narrow set of parameters to aid in conversion).

The loss of a human skills base is definitely one of the things that worries me most about AI-based tools invading the software development field. Company executives can't see past the fog of their fantasies over goosed profit margins via fewer employees and much faster product development time lines. It turns out reality isn't so simple, hence some firms trying to hire back some of those human workers.

I would like to think the AI-based tools will only harm visual creative workers who are imposters -people who don't have actual creative talent, lack the skills to hand-draw/paint using traditional analog tools or at can't at least use the manual digital tools in apps like Illustrator to create clean, precise, professional looking artwork. Someone who is dependent on LiveTrace to do a vector conversion of a well known logo should be in more jeopardy than someone who can do a more precise job using the manual tools.

Unfortunately "professional quality" isn't the standard. With AI, "good enough to get by" is the new standard. If lots of creative workers are going to lose their jobs due to AI the job losses will be indiscriminate. There won't be any picking between real artisans and hacks. If anything, the folks with greater skill sets could be in more danger since they might have been pulling in bigger paychecks.

Earlier someone mentioned AI being similar to the arrival of vinyl cutters and how it destroyed a lot of hand-lettering work. I don't agree with that comparison.

Computer driven vinyl cutters were a big step forward for the sign industry. Same goes for the routing tables. Both raised the quality bar. They did far more precise work at reproducing letter styles and logos onto real-world materials.

AI is not raising the quality bar. It's a move backwards. The technology may do things very fast, but it doesn't generate things accurately. I think "slop" is a very fitting word. It sure isn't art.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

The loss of a human skills base is definitely one of the things that worries me most about AI-based tools invading the software development field.

To me, that's the biggest thing. However, most of of those that are even customers don't really care. Some will, but not most. While I don't think the industry that can still do things by hand/manual will ever go away, the market will shrink and there will be more of a demand of better quality because of that. Radio didn't kill the stage totally, movies didn't kill radio (I listen to far more NTR (not NPR, NTR) compared to actually dealing with movies/TV now (ironically some movies/TV are written in such a way as if they assume people aren't watching them, go figure))

I would like to think the AI-based tools will only harm visual creative workers who are imposters -people who don't have actual creative talent, lack the skills to hand-draw/paint using traditional analog tools or at can't at least use the manual digital tools in apps like Illustrator to create clean, precise, professional looking artwork. Someone who is dependent on LiveTrace to do a vector conversion of a well known logo should be in more jeopardy than someone who can do a more precise job using the manual tools.

Unfortunately, not in my experience. Most customers don't really care beyond how much it affects their pocketbook. Again some do, but they are not the majority. As take has progressed and how abstracted away the knowledge, most people don't even realize what goes into even simple tasks anymore. Given that there is even going to be a prompter problem due to the lack of reading/writing (which will affect creativity in story telling as well, we are already seeing it), pretty soon that will have to be abstracted away as well. "AI" is just the final nail, this downward slide has been going on for just about 20 yrs now in our culture. Either people will just acquiesce to the current situation or maybe there will be a revival. I'm hoping for a revival, but I just don't know.

Unfortunately "professional quality" isn't the standard. With AI, "good enough to get by" is the new standard. If lots of creative workers are going to lose their jobs due to AI the job losses will be indiscriminate. There won't be any picking between real artisans and hacks. If anything, the folks with greater skill sets could be in more danger since they might have been pulling in bigger paychecks.

Oh you know it will be those that are pulling in the bigger paychecks. Even if they hire back those that knew what they were doing, the contract will be far less forgiving compared to what it was before, but given the job market otherwise, still may not have a choice.

Earlier someone mentioned AI being similar to the arrival of vinyl cutters and how it destroyed a lot of hand-lettering work. I don't agree with that comparison.

I've seen that comparison and I have seen the one of just the arrival of Ai/Ps in general being equated as the same thing. It's not, especially if using the more manual tools and those that have an analog counterpart, not all do and not in all industries as well. For instance, layers doesn't really have an analog counter part in the same way that layers in Ps/Ai. The exception being in 2D animation. Background plate will be one layer, have sfx in another layer, character animation on another layer and all compiled within the picture taking process or within a NLE.

Computer driven vinyl cutters were a big step forward for the sign industry. Same goes for the routing tables. Both raised the quality bar. They did far more precise work at reproducing letter styles and logos onto real-world materials.

They were only as precise as their source file though. That's the key thing, is how much involvement is there of the person in it

AI is not raising the quality bar. It's a move backwards. The technology may do things very fast, but it doesn't generate things accurately. I think "slop" is a very fitting word. It sure isn't art.

Art is lumped in with the "humanities", that alone would preclude "AI" from creating art. At least within the realm of traditional art (not necessarily "traditional" in terms of analog). We bring in a lot of baggage within each piece that we do that "AI" just isn't doing. Even if it did, unless it's "evolution" goes in a totally radical direction, it could only simulate it nothing more.


Now, this isn't even getting into the legal implications of IP, NDAs (especially if not using self hosted that has no outside connection what so ever) within projects or if pulling in things that have different licenses or supposed to be in fact closed off and not available as well. There are a lot of implications here. Ironically, even health implications as well. Cognitive decline being a big one and guess what, this also stunts creativity. All in the name of "efficiency". A big reason why I don't like "AI" even for brainstorming. But I also think not everyone has a passion for their respective trade, just another grift to make money, no real skill/talent low barrier to entry just make that scratch and run.

Ironically, even simple tools have affected cognitive decline (I think there has been a study that says this current generation is actually worse off in that area compared to the previous), most of which we are used to by now that would be hard to put away. I imagine that the affects of "AI" in this regard will be even more of an issue.

 

[Bobby H]

Here is an interesting short video on the topic of replacing human workers with AI:

Most customers don't really care beyond how much it affects their pocketbook. Again some do, but they are not the majority. As take has progressed and how abstracted away the knowledge, most people don't even realize what goes into even simple tasks anymore. Given that there is even going to be a prompter problem due to the lack of reading/writing (which will affect creativity in story telling as well, we are already seeing it), pretty soon that will have to be abstracted away as well. "AI" is just the final nail, this downward slide has been going on for just about 20 yrs now in our culture. Either people will just acquiesce to the current situation or maybe there will be a revival. I'm hoping for a revival, but I just don't know.

One thing that worries me about generative AI and how it relates to possible job losses in the sign industry: we might be reaping what we've sewn.

The sign industry has no shortage of hacks passing themselves off as graphic designers and producing shitty work. Over the years I've witnessed the problem in my own work place from other people doing design work. The standard of "good enough to get by" is widespread. I think crappy looking signs is the main cause for various cities and towns adopting highly restrictive sign ordinances.

So if the human designers are producing slop, why not replace their slop with AI slop?

My complaints aren't about artistic merits of the work -although some people can't scroll down farther than Arial in the font menu. I'm talking about making sign designs and shop drawings that are numerically accurate and production ready. I'm talking about creating files that can be opened 10 or more years later without any technical problems. I take a little bit more time up front with the layout so I don't pay for it with lots of wasted time on the back end. I put enough detail in my sketches that I could use that printed sheet of paper to re-create the layout if, God forbid, I lost the original art file.

Art is lumped in with the "humanities", that alone would preclude "AI" from creating art. At least within the realm of traditional art (not necessarily "traditional" in terms of analog). We bring in a lot of baggage within each piece that we do that "AI" just isn't doing. Even if it did, unless it's "evolution" goes in a totally radical direction, it could only simulate it nothing more.

Hardly any guard rails are in place for what kind of content these AI bots use to train themselves. It's already clear the bots have run roughshod over copyrighted and trademarked material. There has been such a proliferation of fake, AI-generated imagery that the bots are now training themselves on that. This is the snake eating its own tail.

AI can create what looks like a pretty picture at first glance. But when someone objectively goes digging into the details flaws are often easily found. The whole thing ends up giving off that "slop" vibe.

Real art usually has to come from deliberate creative choices. Picasso didn't just dream up his ground-breaking art out of the blue. He looked to specific sources for his inspiration. The drawings of young toddlers who hadn't "learned" any artistic conventions yet were one source. Art from mental patients was another. He studied African tribal masks. He was able to intelligently pick what he wanted from these sources to create some of his most memorable work. A generative AI bot doesn't work in that manner. The bot just rapidly cobbles together whatever gunk it finds to satisfy the query of a prompt. The bot does so without deliberation or inspiration. It's creating the art version of Frankenstein's monster.

 

[Stacey K]

I think design will become a forgotten art, and that's just how time works.

It gets too expensive or too time consuming to design from scratch and after a decade or generation, nobody cares anymore. Nobody cares that they eat nasty tomatoes from a can, it's faster than a garden and canning. Nobody cares the church ceilings are white instead of beautifully painted scenes, it's too expensive. Nobody cares that race cars aren't hand painted, full color wraps you can't read and fluorescents are cooler. Once all these new AI logos get popular, the standard will be replaced and nobody will care anymore. Not that they don't care but they won't know any different.

Michelangelo is rolling in his grave every time a church ceiling is painted white. Italian grandmas are rolling in their grave every time someone buys a can of Cambells Tomato Soup. Grandpas can't believe their grandkids can't change a tire. But his grandpa probably wondered why he couldn't change a horseshoe for the covered wagon. Bad examples but you get the idea LOL

Personally, I'd like to see avocados, oranges and yellows from the 70's come back to home design but that's probably not happening since nobody seems to like color anymore.

 

[Humble PM]

I'd like to see avocados, oranges and yellows

I was with you until the yellows, I can't grow them, and the shop bought ones don't taste so good.

I see a lot of young people starting to shoot film (and yes, I think this to be a trend very much helped by Instgram), of whom a few then go on a workshop and into the darkrooms. Some of them more often that I could afford. I konw they are less than a tiny fraction of a percent of picture takers, but there seem to be a few who want to learn the basics.

I really like the Hiscox billboard adverts - definitely not the product of AI, and following in the footsteps of some ver ygood typography.

(OK, so I can't grow oranges or avocados either...)

 

[Goatshaver]

I had a customer use ChatGPT to make a bag design and sent me a screenshot of the generated image. It made the design but made it a mockup of a mylar bag. They wanted to used that so I came up with artwork similar, then they couldn't understand why it wasn't the same. I tried to explain to them as best I could but not sure they understand.

 

[Stacey K]

I was with you until the yellows, I can't grow them, and the shop bought ones don't taste so good.

I see a lot of young people starting to shoot film (and yes, I think this to be a trend very much helped by Instgram), of whom a few then go on a workshop and into the darkrooms. Some of them more often that I could afford. I konw they are less than a tiny fraction of a percent of picture takers, but there seem to be a few who want to learn the basics.

I really like the Hiscox billboard adverts - definitely not the product of AI, and following in the footsteps of some ver ygood typography.

(OK, so I can't grow oranges or avocados either...)

The Hiscox is very cool! For sure not AI.

Glad to hear you see young people using film to shoot. I remember darkrooms from high school, there was something really fun about seeing your photo appear on the film in the dark!

 

[Bobby H]

Shooting photos on film is definitely more difficult and time-consuming than using a digital camera. You really have to lean on discipline to be successful. The experience feels a lot more rewarding (or even magical) when you see a shot turn out really well when making prints in the dark room.

I think the principals one learns from film photography can pay off well when shooting digital. You'll remember to do certain things to get the shot right in the camera rather than trying to fix it afterward in Photoshop or Lightroom.

 

[Humble PM]

. I remember darkrooms from high school, there was something really fun about seeing your photo appear on the film in the dark!

Almost every time we have trades coming into the dark room, they walk out saying it brings them back to school.

I think the principals one learns from film photography can pay off well when shooting digital. You'll remember to do certain things to get the shot right in the camera rather than trying to fix it afterward in Photoshop or Lightroom.

I work with a lot of photographers on their images for shows, and over the years, I've learnt that those who have printed (particularly colour) in the DR are way better to work with on the grading and file prep - way more understanding of the subtleties, and have a better vocab regarding colour.

 

[Andries0livier]

Free software (Upscayl) AI image upscaler

 

[Precision]

We try to use it to upsell.

I tell my client that I do love their design. However, It's not to size and not in a printable file format, nor is it a vector.

Not a problem I will have my vector artist redraw it for a small fee. Fees varies on the complicity of the image.

My vector guy has a range from$8.50 to $50 depending on the complicity of the image.

We can usually add at least an hour or two of design to the project.

 

[Think713]

Get Topaz Gigapixel and upscale his BS AI image into something usable...its more AI but it actually recreates things when upscaling...crisps up text and even some cartoon style artwork better than the original

We use topaz to create high quality large images to print full scale on box trucks and wraps for other types of vehicles/wall murals etc.. Its been great for that. Definitely a use of AI I approve of.

 

[Boudica]

While we are ranting about ai...

Artificial Intelligence:Generative AI's Environmental and Human Effects​

Generative AI uses large amounts of energy and water. Additionally, generative AI may displace workers, help spread false information, and create or elevate risks to national security.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I think design will become a forgotten art, and that's just how time works.

Here is the thing, radio didn't kill the stage (ironically some of the best movie/tv actors have a stage background even in the campiest of shows), movies didn't kill radio, tv didn't kill movies. They all here with their respective audience. Some will shrink, but with that shrinkage comes a demand for better as well within that market. I still do traditional 2D animation (that means pencil/paper/dip pen etc), stop motion. I taught my kids the same thing, along with calligraphy.

Of course, there is also this: Article

I think what most people confuse is that that's all that we need to be doing. It's not. It's knowing those foundations, after all, given the problems with reading/writing that most kids have now, this current trajectory that we are on isn't good. Or at least doesn't appear to be.

It gets too expensive or too time consuming to design from scratch and after a decade or generation, nobody cares anymore. Nobody cares that they eat nasty tomatoes from a can, it's faster than a garden and canning.

Well, there are some of us nobodies that do. Now with regard to food, people should care more, but it's also that they are just not nutritional aware either. Ironically, for some things, it's not a herculean effort compared to what people think that it is. Just that knowledge is lost. Also, fermenting is going to be better compared to canning (nutritionally speaking, shelf stable is something else) and less work comparatively speaking.

Although, again, there is a happy medium. It's not totally do without the latest and greatest, but it's learning from the beginning what is going to be later abstracted by those tools. Those tools in some capacity will fail and when they do, does that mean nothing gets done? Just like with programming, I think people need to be able to have some grasp of being able to read ASM, but they don't necessarily have to still be writing it day in and day out.

Personally, I'd like to see avocados, oranges and yellows from the 70's come back to home design but that's probably not happening since nobody seems to like color anymore.

I have an overlock machine from that era. When I want that fix, I just look at that.

Funny story about growing avocados. They take about 7 yrs to produce fruit on the low end. My grandparents grew some (from seed). They lasted until they were 6 yrs old after that kicked the bucket.

 

[Think713]

While we are ranting about ai...

Artificial Intelligence:Generative AI's Environmental and Human Effects​

Generative AI uses large amounts of energy and water. Additionally, generative AI may displace workers, help spread false information, and create or elevate risks to national security.

I dont think thats accurate. It is accurate that they take up land, and use water. But its not like a bottle of water is used and it disapears into the ether. Water consistently forever stays in the water cycle unless its contained. Data Centers are likely using a particular singluar amount of water that is fed through its processors to keep them cool. But like the water in regular computers, thats not new water thats constantly being added.

Not to mention no one has this sentiment over anything else in the world that uses water. I'm not making a case "FOR" ai data centers. But I think there is a lot of rhetoric based around how these things work that is just not accurate.
What I think is terrible is how much water doesn't get poured out of plastic water bottles, someone closes the cap and then throws it away.. Which quite literally locks away that water from the water cycle for thousands of years until that plastic decomposes... That to me is far more concerning. But I'm not here to say what is morally right or wrong.

I think design will become a forgotten art, and that's just how time works.

It gets too expensive or too time consuming to design from scratch and after a decade or generation, nobody cares anymore. Nobody cares that they eat nasty tomatoes from a can, it's faster than a garden and canning. Nobody cares the church ceilings are white instead of beautifully painted scenes, it's too expensive. Nobody cares that race cars aren't hand painted, full color wraps you can't read and fluorescents are cooler. Once all these new AI logos get popular, the standard will be replaced and nobody will care anymore. Not that they don't care but they won't know any different.

Michelangelo is rolling in his grave every time a church ceiling is painted white. Italian grandmas are rolling in their grave every time someone buys a can of Cambells Tomato Soup. Grandpas can't believe their grandkids can't change a tire. But his grandpa probably wondered why he couldn't change a horseshoe for the covered wagon. Bad examples but you get the idea LOL

Personally, I'd like to see avocados, oranges and yellows from the 70's come back to home design but that's probably not happening since nobody seems to like color anymore.

Color theory is in your hands. No one is stopping you from using any particular color.

 

[Boudica]

I dont think thats accurate. It is accurate that they take up land, and use water. But its not like a bottle of water is used and it disapears into the ether. Water consistently forever stays in the water cycle unless its contained. Data Centers are likely using a particular singluar amount of water that is fed through its processors to keep them cool. But like the water in regular computers, thats not new water thats constantly being added.

I had a link to my source, did you read it? I don't believe your statements are accurate. The water is only partly re-usable. You cannot re-use what evaporates.

Key Details on Data Center Water Reuse:

• Evaporation Loss: Many AI data centers use evaporative cooling, where water is sprayed to cool hot air. This water turns into vapor and escapes into the atmosphere.
• Contamination & Limits:
  Recirculated water collects bacteria, limescale, and impurities, requiring it to be eventually replaced, meaning it cannot be used indefinitely.

 

[Bobby H]

I don't think that's accurate. It is accurate that they take up land, and use water. But its not like a bottle of water is used and it disappears into the ether. Water consistently forever stays in the water cycle unless its contained. Data Centers are likely using a particular singular amount of water that is fed through its processors to keep them cool. But like the water in regular computers, that's not new water that's constantly being added.

Data centers suck up enormous amounts of treated water from municipal water supplies.

Most cities and towns have a finite daily supply of treated water. Only so many millions of gallons per day. Obviously there is a cost to that service. Water treatment plants and the associated infrastructure costs money to maintain and operate. If a data center takes up a big chunk of a town's water supply capacity it only makes sense that monthly water bills would increase for residential customers. Greater demand leads to higher prices. A town could try boosting its daily water supply capacity, but that means expanding existing water treatment plants or building new ones. And it might mean finding new reservoirs for untreated water capture and storage. That costs even more money.

Color theory is in your hands. No one is stopping you from using any particular color.

No one except for the occasional customer who insists on a nonsensical choice.

 

[Stacey K]

I think what most people confuse is that that's all that we need to be doing. It's not. It's knowing those foundations, after all, given the problems with reading/writing that most kids have now, this current trajectory that we are on isn't good. Or at least doesn't appear to be.

I 100% agree. My son and nephew went to college during Covid. My son's college continued with in-person learning, he graduated. My nephew never saw the inside of a classroom and ended up dropping out $80k later. Such a shame what Covid did to our young people. Thankfully, my youngest was a sophomore so he already had the foundation.

Well, there are some of us nobodies that do. Now with regard to food, people should care more, but it's also that they are just not nutritional aware either. Ironically, for some things, it's not a herculean effort compared to what people think that it is. Just that knowledge is lost. Also, fermenting is going to be better compared to canning (nutritionally speaking, shelf stable is something else) and less work comparatively speaking.

Again, I 100% agree with this. I have a good-sized garden and do a lot of canning, freezing and drying. I try to make all my own mixes from scratch, etc. and stay away from processed food. Have not tried fermenting! (new rabbit hole for tonight!) Not only does gardening provide us with fresh vegetables but time spent with your hands in the dirt is very relaxing and grounding. Gino and Boudica have spectacular gardens and a lot of knowledge in this area also. (a forgotten skill that will keep us valuable if there's ever a zombie apocalypse LOL) or a food shortage...a war...an alien invasion...out of this world prices...so basically, this summer LOL

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I 100% agree. My son and nephew went to college during Covid. My son's college continued with in-person learning, he graduated. My nephew never saw the inside of a classroom and ended up dropping out $80k later. Such a shame what Covid did to our young people. Thankfully, my youngest was a sophomore so he already had the foundation.

Tech has it's place, but only after the foundation is there for what tech is abstracting away. Like the study I linked above and I'm sure we all have seen at least anecdotal evidence just out in the world of this, relying too much on tech is not good. If the power goes out, are people able to still do their job or does it all stop until the power is back on?

The response to Covid was just appalling, but I'll try not to go down that rabbit hole too much.

Again, I 100% agree with this. I have a good-sized garden and do a lot of canning, freezing and drying. I try to make all my own mixes from scratch, etc. and stay away from processed food. Have not tried fermenting! (new rabbit hole for tonight!) Not only does gardening provide us with fresh vegetables but time spent with your hands in the dirt is very relaxing and grounding. Gino and Boudica have spectacular gardens and a lot of knowledge in this area also. (a forgotten skill that will keep us valuable if there's ever a zombie apocalypse LOL) or a food shortage...a war...an alien invasion...out of this world prices...so basically, this summer LOL

6th gen Aggie here (plus my formal education is in it as well (equine nutrition/reproduction and ag econ)) and still do it just for the family needs though. Anything that we don't do, swap with other farmers. Will still actually mill our flour as well (stone grinding at that, which is better, it is electric milling, not using a molcajete(we use that for guac)) and no, we don't have someone that only does house work to be able to do this (I bring this up, because people claim time and it's really not that much of a suck on time once the kinks are worked out). Don't get me started on enriched/fortified bread versus fresh milled with the good stuff stripped away, only to be synthetically put back in and at marginal amounts at that (some people can't even process effectively due to how it was put back). Ironically, I would argue that's why bread gets the bad rep that it does, when it can actually be better for people. Also, if one does their own starter, that will provide food for the bacteria that you are putting in the gut (a lot of issues in health that we have can be traced back to nutrition or lack thereof) from the fermentation process. Won't get the bacteria due to the baking of the bread, but it does provide food for the bacteria that one gets from the fermentation process.