Applying vinyl issues, need advice!

[rudeez]

Hi!

Been doing quite many signs and car jobs by now, still im quite new to the bussiness.
Doing Aluminium signs today. Always applying vinyl graphics using water with a drop of soap. Sometimes i get no "waterbubbels" at all and sometimes it's just alot of them everywhere. You know when you squeege and they just wont go away, just floats around under the decor.. Today im having those problems on the alu signs, used the same material for car graphics some days ago and was spot on. Im just wondering what tips you have for this?
On the attached image i've squeeged for like 5 mins on the same letter "M" and still it looks quite bad, but as i said, it's watermix.
Im also wondering if this water that is still under there will go away by itself by drying a few days or if it dryes in sunlight etc?
This vinyl is the image perfect 5700 series, using R-Tape conform (paper) for application tape. Don't think it's my technique really, squeeging from middle to outsides alot and hard for atleast 5 mins ontop of the r-tape before removing it...

Please help me.

 

[letterman7]

Don't sweat it. It happens. If your customer doesn't object or have the time to wait, they will disappear over time. Metallics, like you've used, tend to do that for some reason I've found. Check the edge of your squegee, too. Any little nicks will end up as bubbles. Could be the soap, too. Never use dish soap or anything with a surfactant in it (ok, caveat: I've heard some guys use Ivory liquid and others Johnson baby shampoo with good results). I've been doing this for almost 20 years and I still have the occasional water bubble stay behind!

 

[rudeez]

Don't sweat it. It happens. If your customer doesn't object or have the time to wait, they will disappear over time. Metallics, like you've used, tend to do that for some reason I've found. Check the edge of your squegee, too. Any little nicks will end up as bubbles. Could be the soap, too. Never use dish soap or anything with a surfactant in it (ok, caveat: I've heard some guys use Ivory liquid and others Johnson baby shampoo with good results). I've been doing this for almost 20 years and I still have the occasional water bubble stay behind!

When you saying "Don't sweat it" you mean im using to much water? Is it possible to use to much and the result of overconsuming it is this?
Indeed it's metallic vinyl, actually i diden't thought it could be that!
Iv'e been using all kind of squeeges, never finding the right one, theyre all to soft and get's old quickly. Actually i've been using application water wich iv'e bought, i think the brand of it is "SOTT". It has a bit of pink/red look to it an smells quite good. Until today since it's quite expensive so i just figured to go with the soap/water mix. And yes, i did use dish soap, so it might be that.. will try some hand soap instead then tomorrow, i thought the soap is only for breaking the "surface" of the water, im swedish, don't know the word for it
So what you're saying is that even you after 20 years got these problems sometimes?
Iv'e been doing this kind of stuff since june last year and im fully trained by myself from everything to original vector work, cutting, printing, applying etc. It's not rocket sience but im far from fully learned, even tho, it's actually something i wanna work with for a long time to come so i really wanna learn to deal with things like this. Dry application isen't really my thing tho. Did it a few weeks back with a car and the result was horrible...

May it be that different brands on vinyls is extra sensitive to?
Any suggestions for brands?
The ones i've used so far for this kind of applications is the Image Perfect 3500/5700 series, Ritrama 400 series mainly. The ritrama is horrible to work with, costs 1/3 of the more high quality brands tho.
I've just bought gloss black Mactac 9800 aswell but haven't tried it yet.
I got one dealer who sells JAC aswell wich i've heard is good?
For gerber printing i've been using Oracal 651 series aswell, seems nice but never had the chance to make some big applications with it.

Wall of text, sorry

 

[striper14]

i think you need a bit more detergent. I use a garden pressure pack using the cheapest mild detergent i can get. I like the mix to just feel slightly slippery between my fingers. Too slippery & you can't get the premask off quickly, too dry & the vinyl sticks too well.
I like to get the premask off as soon as possible (5 minutes is way too long ) cos then you can squeegee any bubbles you see, using a sleeve of course. wet it first to help removal
Just practise with some scrap & different concentrations of your app fluid. I'm always amazed how a big wrinkly chunk of vinyl floating on water can be squeegeed perfectly flat

 

[Red Ball]

We very rarely use any type of application fluid.

All dry installations.

In the rare occasion we need a wet application, we use a commercially mixed fluid like Rapid-Tac.

Try to get away from mixing soap and water. A little too much soap and you ruin your vinyl. I believe the old wisdom was you are to resqueegee after 24 hours anyway. Who has time for that.

A little more practice is all you should need.

 

[Techman]

more soap will not be the answer.

Better technique will be the answer. More practice.

 

[rudeez]

Just came back to the workshop, the waterbubbles had flatten out by itself this morning, the whole sign was flat apart from like 2-3 small small ones on one letter!
But i guess better tech will fix this for future work!

 

[letterman7]

Better technique will be the answer. More practice.

You don't get bubbles from time to time, Tech? If not, I'm coming to your location to teach me...

 

[bob]

You don't get bubbles from time to time, Tech? If not, I'm coming to your location to teach me...

As long as you use proper technique you won't have any bubbles, neither from time to time nor ever. Once you develop the proper technique, application flaws happen most often when you stop paying complete attention to what your doing.

Doing simple flat work wet is a sure sign that you have yet to develop the proper technique. The only time you need to do anything wet is when applying an overlay with critical registration and you need to slide it around to get the registration perfect.

 

[The Big Squeegee]

i think you need a bit more detergent. I use a garden pressure pack using the cheapest mild detergent i can get. I like the mix to just feel slightly slippery between my fingers. Too slippery & you can't get the premask off quickly, too dry & the vinyl sticks too well.
I like to get the premask off as soon as possible (5 minutes is way too long ) cos then you can squeegee any bubbles you see, using a sleeve of course. wet it first to help removal
Just practise with some scrap & different concentrations of your app fluid. I'm always amazed how a big wrinkly chunk of vinyl floating on water can be squeegeed perfectly flat

The detergent is used to break the surface tension of the water. A couple of drops in a gallon of water is more than enough to perform this task. You should be able to do this job dry.

 

[G-Artist]

Do you really want to use detergent vs. soap? Or for that matter any liquid not engineered for today's vinyl?

Look at the list of ingredients in any detergent. What effect, negative or otherwise, can they have with the adhesive?

And what *may* not be a disadvantage or injurious using Brand X vinyl (using a mild non-additive soap) could be very negative using Brand Y vinyl.

I am not sure there is even a one-size-fits-all even with app fluid that is specifically engineered for today's modern adhesives. For some vinyl brands or a particular line in a brand one app fluid may be superior to another (factoring in substrate and ambient temperature as well).

 

[Rooster]

I've had issues with the soap and water mixture too. Tried out the rapid-tac II to see if it was all that, and what do you know.... problem went away.

I know some on here think it's all a bunch of balony, but hey, it worked for me.

 

[Vinyldog]

When I did wet installs my choice was Johnsons baby shampoo - someone mentioned hand softners, anti-streak agents etc. in some detergents - who knows how that effects the adhesive?
On a standard squeegee there is almost always a ridge or crease - use that to sharpen and strighten the edge of another squeegee by scrubing it back and forth against it - a small dink or wear curve in your squeegee will cause bubbles.
Havn't used much shampoo since I got the laminater and discovered air-egress.