Banners, windows, shirts etc. for franchises like "Pruvit" "31" "Tupperware" etc.

[Gino]

a77...... I'm afraid your lackadaisical approach won't work in our country or your own. Whether or not you are new to the industry or an old hat at it..... laws are laws and you either abide by them or not. You, nor anyone else has the power to pick and choose which ones they wanna follow or break.

With your attitude, you think if you go into a store and buy a shirt, can of soup or trousers it's alright to do so, but if you see a roll of scotch tape, you don't hafta pay for it, cause it was just on a shelf without a label on it ??

Did you work anywhere in your lifetime and think it was alright to take a pen from work home or a rubberband ?? Is it still stealing.... or just based upon the value YOU put on it ??

Sorry, but it is your job to at least try to find out if the file is allowed or not. Otherwise, you're just a hack.

It's so simple. You just ask the person, how or where did you come across these logos/files ?? You're gonna need a signed authorization from someone near the top of corporate to sign off that you can duplicate this whatever. YOU are making money on the job, so you are gaining something here, without legal right to do so.

If this sounds too hard for you, go get a job as an elevator operator or handing out towels at a tanning salon.

What this really proves is........ you and your business ethics and integrity.

 

[Humble PM]

Had a phone call a few years ago asking if we could do a handful of 40x60" high quality prints from a movie screen shot. Said no on a couple of grounds: 1, quality would be poor. 2, it would be copyright infringement. Without skipping a beat, guy on the other end asks what size file should be rendered, and can he wait while the prints are run from the encrypted memory stick, as the movie was not yet released. I expalined that would tie me up for a few hours - not a problem, add it to the bill.

He sent a follow up email after the call, to confirm order, from his work email, which to me made it legitimate, so I confirmed appointment. Turns up right on time, we run the prints, and while they're going through, he explained that we were the third printers he'd contacted, and the first to question copyright, so the job fell to us. While packing the prints, he reminded me to charge for the two hours print time, and handed over the corporate mastercard.

 

[a77]

Sorry, but it is your job to at least try to find out if the file is allowed or not. Otherwise, you're just a hack.

It's so simple. You just ask the person, how or where did you come across these logos/files ?? You're gonna need a signed authorization from someone near the top of corporate to sign off that you can duplicate this whatever. YOU are making money on the job, so you are gaining something here, without legal right to do so.

Gino, widely known to have integrity.... Hmmm.. Rubber bands, pens... where are you going with this? It sure is a slippery slope.

Thanks for defining my job. So we have to "at least try to find out if is allowed or not". That was my specific question. And now I have your odd explanation of what I must do:

I'm "gonna need a signed authorization from someone near the top of corporate to sign off that you can duplicate this..."

WTF is that really? Signed authorization? How near to the top do we have to go? How do we get all this pertinent information. Should the signed authorization be notarized? Should I show my lawyer?

An email is adequate for HumblePM. I would tend to think that's good enough as well. But Gino, to what lengths do you go to make sure you are fully authorized - honestly?

 

[Johnny Best]

Do they still have elevator operators? Never been to a tanning salon either but handing out towels to women after they get out would be a fun job.

 

[a77]

Do they still have elevator operators? Never been to a tanning salon either but handing out towels to women after they get out would be a fun job.

Plus you'd never have to buy towels for home. I mean.. the tanning salon wouldn't miss them if a couple went missing.

 

[Boudica]

Do they still have elevator operators? Never been to a tanning salon either but handing out towels to women after they get out would be a fun job.

I haven't been to a tanning salon in about 30 years, but that was never a thing. the only towels around were for cleaning the tanning bed.

 

[a77]

I haven't been to a tanning salon in about 30 years, but that was never a thing. the only towels around were for cleaning the tanning bed.

I'd still take those home. Call it a 'perk'.

 

[Johnny Best]

I haven't been to a tanning salon in about 30 years, but that was never a thing. the only towels around were for cleaning the tanning bed.

30 years ago, so you were only about 5 years old getting under the UV lamps. I think they spray on the tan now.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

You're working day to day, files coming in all the time. Some tupperware lady comes in and wants some signage, provides Replyyou files (raster, vector, who cares...).

If it's a well known brand name, I make sure that I have a release that allows me to use those logos from someone higher up then them. If they truly have permission, they should be able to provide that. It could be a pain in the ass for them as then one extra step, but it should still be reasonably easy for them to get.

What do YOU do as a professional to reasonably research the lawfulness of you printing this customers stuff?

I mentioned 2 of the easiest methods. Also have the ability to look up the copyright office. All that is public info if you want to go even further.

Your example about a Disney character... I don't know what a Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm character looks like. I don't watch cartoons or superhero movies, I'm busy trying to work. How am I supposed to know what is legal to print?

Wow, you don't know what Mickey Mouse looks like? Never heard of Star Wars? Captain America, Iron man? You don't have to watch or read(depending on the example) movies/cartoons/comic books to not know a little about popular culture. Now, I will admit, I'm a lifelong nerd (although due to Disney, not so much of those characters anymore, at least not the Disney versions, but I digress).

As to how to know, that's when that reasonable amount of research comes in. I don't consider it any different in the reasonable amount of research to see what type of signage is allowed in a particular jurisdiction and what may or may not need to be signed off on permit wise. That just goes into being in business. At least that's what I would think, your mileage may vary.

I would say all quotes/invoices should say "customer owns all supplied artwork... etc..etc.."

Customer owns all artwork or customer is supposed to have all permissions etc, doesn't really hold up that much if they can't confirm it to my satisfaction. My threshold of "satisfaction" is definitely not yours. Which is fine, you do you.

 

[Gino]

Gino, widely known to have integrity.... Hmmm.. Rubber bands, pens... where are you going with this? It sure is a slippery slope.

Thanks for defining my job. So we have to "at least try to find out if is allowed or not". That was my specific question. And now I have your odd explanation of what I must do:

I'm "gonna need a signed authorization from someone near the top of corporate to sign off that you can duplicate this..."

WTF is that really? Signed authorization? How near to the top do we have to go? How do we get all this pertinent information. Should the signed authorization be notarized? Should I show my lawyer?

An email is adequate for HumblePM. I would tend to think that's good enough as well. But Gino, to what lengths do you go to make sure you are fully authorized - honestly?

Just another dumb bumbling f*ck.

Ya know, do as you wish and keep up the good work. In your particular case, you don't need any authorization or integrity. I guess the rules are completely different in canada, huh ??

And please don't worry about what I do. I have no need for someone with your abilities looking over my shoulder. I already know how it works.

 

[Humble PM]

An email is adequate for HumblePM

His email and signature signature was lead animator at xyza.com, coupled with the phone call, I knew we were in the clear. We take copyright seriously, and to be honest would rather turn down the sorts of clients who would nickle and dime.

 

[a77]

Wow, you don't know what Mickey Mouse looks like? Never heard of Star Wars? Captain America, Iron man? You don't have to watch movies/cartoons/comic books to not know a little about popular culture. Now, I will admit, I'm a lifelong nerd (although due to Disney, not so much of those characters anymore, at least not the Disney ones, but I digress).

Yes, I know Mickey Mouse. But I might not be as connected with popular culture. I'm a lifelong non-nerd. But the point is, we can't put all this on the signmaker to know what is copyrighted and what's not.

You say: "Also have the ability to look up the copyright office"
Give me a break. You do this?
Tupperware girl comes in and wants a sign, you actually do this? You don't. Neither does Gino. Well maybe Gino.. he can find hours and hours in a day to useless things.

Customer owns all artwork or customer is supposed to have all permissions etc, doesn't really hold up that much if they can't confirm it to my satisfaction. My threshold of "satisfaction" is definitely not yours. Which is fine, you do you.

I'm cool with that.
But let's be honest... most signmakers don't have the time to do all this research. If it's says "(C) Disney" on the art, you can tell the customer we don't have rights to print. But then again... you could say that about any artwork you get whether it looks like a superhero or some tupperware logo. Drill your customer "DO YOU REALLY HAVE THE RIGHTS?", or go look it up on copyright registry? Ridiculous.

 

[a77]

Just another dumb bumbling f*ck.

Ya know, do as you wish and keep up the good work. In your particular case, you don't need any authorization or integrity. I guess the rules are completely different in canada, huh ??

And please don't worry about what I do. I have no need for someone with your abilities looking over my shoulder. I already know how it works.

You don't practice what you preach. You give no useful information about how to ensure they have the rights to ask you to print the artwork.
It's all platitudes and metaphors for Gino.

No, we don't believe that you are checking all artwork against the copyright registy.
No, we don't believe you always make sure you get signed authorization from "near the top" whatever the f that means.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

But the point is, we can't put all this on the signmaker to know what is copyrighted and what's not.

That is were "reasonable" comes in. None of this takes all that much time. It is a right click away as far as metadata does. I'm a one person operation and if I can deal with it, I can imagine anyone that has more then one person can as well.

You say: "Also have the ability to look up the copyright office"
Give me a break. You do this?

I said you have that ability with regard to that one. I do metadata, reverse image search and if it's a well known regional/national brand I ask for the paper giving permission from the home office.

Tupperware girl comes in and wants a sign, you actually do this? You don't. Neither does Gino. Well maybe Gino.. he can find hours and hours in a day to useless things.

Damn straight I do. If it's a regional/nationally known brand. I don't mess around. I'll ask for that paper from the home office. Documents of this type have already done before hand, that's all part of dealing with freelancers as well.

I'm cool with that.
But let's be honest... most signmakers don't have the time to do all this research. If it's says "(C) Disney" on the art, you can tell the customer we don't have rights to print. But then again... you could say that about any artwork you get whether it looks like a superhero or some tupperware logo. Drill your customer "DO YOU REALLY HAVE THE RIGHTS?", or go look it up on copyright registry? Ridiculous.

I think you are embellishing a little. I don't put them under a heat lamp and give them the third degree and if they don't answer my questions, I take the phone book from 2001 and smack them around some.

Metadata and reverse image search can all be done without asking the customer at all and they take a small amount of time. Paper with permission is reserved for regional/national brands and I can promise you, the regional/national brands have how those drafted in a fill in the blank fashion that doesn't take as much time as I imagine you think that it does.

 

[a77]

That is were "reasonable" comes in. None of this takes all that much time. It is a right click away as far as metadata does. I'm a one person operation and if I can deal with it, I can imagine anyone that has more then one person can as well.

I said you have that ability with regard to that one. I do metadata, reverse image search and if it's a well known regional/national brand I ask for the paper giving permission from the home office.


Damn straight I do. If it's a regional/nationally known brand. I don't mess around. I'll ask for that paper from the home office. Documents of this type have already done before hand, that's all part of dealing with freelancers as well.

I think you are embellishing a little. I don't put them under a heat lamp and give them the third degree and if they don't answer my questions, I take the phone book from 2001 and smack them around some.

Metadata and reverse image search can all be done without asking the customer at all and they take a small amount of time. Paper with permission is reserved for regional/national brands and I can promise you, the regional/national brands have how those drafted in a fill in the blank fashion that doesn't take as much time as I imagine you think that it does.

Thanks WildWest - I appreciate that.
Honest question: How many times, in a year let's say, after doing your metadata analysis or any other method of determination about suitability for print, do you actually tell the customer: "No I won't print this for you." ?

 

[Humble PM]

Moral gut feeling. When you understand copyright (and it works for us as well), then you get a feeling when something might not be legal / kosher / could become a right royal pita. If you sense a red flag, ask a couple of questions. If the client is legit, then press go. But blindly saying sure, is leaving yourself open to un-needed potentials.

In our case one phone call, an email, 2 hours shop time and £150 of paper and ink made 10x material costs. Made a nice end to the week, sititng chatting with a really smart guy, over a couple of cold beers, while the printer ran.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Moral gut feeling. When you understand copyright (and it works for us as well), then you get a feeling when something might not be legal / kosher / could become a right royal pita. If you sense a red flag, ask a couple of questions. If the client is legit, then press go. But blindly saying sure, is leaving yourself open to un-needed potentials.

This is good advice right here. The things that trigger a little bit more is almost like having a feeling that you are dealing with a tire kicker etc.

Thanks WildWest - I appreciate that.
Honest question: How many times, in a year let's say, after doing your metadata analysis or any other method of determination about suitability for print, do you actually tell the customer: "No I won't print this for you." ?

In a year, less then a couple of handful of times. One year, I actually had 3 shops put in a request for the same logo (this was a well known brand and the end customers worked for the local affiliate here), so in one year, I had that skew in the number as well.

I would say that I turn away far more of the obvious ones (the Disney's, the Marvel's (which is really just Disney)) then ones that fail this. John Deere, even for the local dealership here (which I am known as I am a customer as well), I won't touch. John Deere has 4 official vendors for their stuff. I am not one of them. I won't touch that at all.

 

[Stacey K]

I've done quite a bit for XXXXX and we always get approval from the district manager before anything is sent for print. They have a really nice, in-depth art guide to follow, it makes it very easy for me to set-up a sign, etc. In one case a guy had a red truck but the vehicle lettering was required in black or full color (something like that). he really wanted white so we did the mock up and it was sent to the district manager so he could get approval. About a week later we were in the clear with the white. To me this is reasonable research, in touch with the customer, his district manager and getting the original art guide sent from the corporate office.

In this particular case with Pruvit, they have everything you need for your storefront available for purchase. There is no art guide so that's a red flag right there. And with the catfighting going on, why would I want an evil email threat from the other store owner? I talked to the gal today and I thanked her for considering me first and suggested she order directly to avoid any possible issues. She agreed. Plus, I can't get kicked out of that store...they have a massive selection of spray paint for every vinyl color out there! LOL

Unfortunately it seems in a small town I am often playing counsellor to certain repeat customers. I never repeat the gossip or comment one way or another - unless it's on here and for a sign related issue. I suppose it doesn't help that my counter has bar stools...people probably feel like they are in a tavern and I am the bartender LOL

 

[Notarealsignguy]

This subject has been beat to death. Just use common sense. If Susie Q from down the road wants 100 Mickey mouse shirts printed, don't do it. If Susie Q comes in carrying a check from Walt Disney enterprises and wants 100 Mickey mouse shirts printed, I'd err on the side of fuuck it. She might get fired for doing it but how the hell can Disney sue you for making shirts for them that they paid for?
Who prints for car dealers here? Do you get written permission from Ford to use their logo for the Ford dealer?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Who prints for car dealers here? Do you get written permission from Ford to use their logo for the Ford dealer?

Funny you should mention Ford. I think that they did indeed sue a 3rd party printer over this very thing back in 2011 or 2012 and they did lose. I think it was a printer in Texas.
They had claimed several things, I can't remember if they lost all outright on their own merits or if the majority hinged on the outcome of one major claim. How one files the claim(s) does matter.
I do want to say that Ford didn't go after the dealership (which I think was a red flag, but I can't remember, it may have been a non issue), but were just going after the printers instead. I think they sent a lot of letters originally and one fought back.

Now to your original question, yes I do, did and will continue to do so. Regional/national brands (some national brands do qualify as international, only one was actually HQ internationally) all digitizing, but they would qualify as well, not alot though compared to the regional/national) I do take this very seriously. I prefer to make sure all my i's and all my t's are taken care of appropriately. I wouldn't want to have to deal with the stress that something like this causes to begin with and I would imagine that I would be the lucky one that they would want to try to make an example of.

And you know, our system is setup to encourage this type of action. If companies (or us as well) don't actively protect this type of property right, they/we lose that protection.