Best Printer For Indoor Vinyl

[kristab]

Hello!
I'm new to the forum and could really use some advice. I currently make stickers, labels, etc on regular paper and a month ago decided to upgrade to a large format printer/cutter. I found a dealer and we were sold a Roland SG-300. After over a month now of trying to get this thing to print clear, "non-grainy" images up close, I am at a loss as to whether this thing can actually do what I need. My dealer is giving me the run around and the technician pretty much said this isn't the right printer for me. I had zero knowledge of large format printers and the different types of ink that is available out there. I now know that perhaps I need a Latex or a Aqueous printer instead of this Eco-Solvent. I found a material I love that is a 3m matte vinyl that I want to be able to print on. The stickers I need to print are small (like 1-2 inches or less), and need to be smooth, crisp, and sharp up close (My little Epson inkjet can easily do this with no issues). I just want a material upgrade.

I'm really just lost and frustrated that I spent so much money and do not even have 1 sticker sheet I can sell because the quality is terrible. The machine is brand new, everything is calibrated perfectly, installed correctly, correct material settings, heat, etc. It has all been done. I decided I need to do some research myself which led me here.

 

[ikarasu]

Have any pictures?

Solvent and latex are both "grainy", its the way they print. But it also depends on the material you are using. What material are you using? The cheaper material doesn't soak up ink that good. I know IJ35 looks like crap compared to 180. how bad does it look?

Can't see since they dont super zoom in, but it doesn't look bad to me.

If you want 100% coverage, no dots... youll probably need a gerber edge. If all you make are stickers/labels, its the best bet for you.... Depending on how big you make, and how many colors.

Never, ever buy a printer without getting them to demo it / make a sample of one of your items... First thing you should take away from this.

 

[kristab]

I don't expect 100% coverage but I don't want to be able to see the grain from 3 feet away either. I saw their brochure and the sample prints and it looked amazing. Never did I imagine it would not be able to print a clear, crisp image.

We offer hundreds of different sticker sheets in all colors, and print/cut thousands of sheets (8.5 x 11 now) per month.

I attached a few pictures, the first is on Roland Glossy from a test file the tech printed. The second is on the 3M IJ36-20 with my images. I've tried vector and BMP.

The tech has been here for 12+ hours already, I've spent hours trying to change media profile, color profile, heat, uni print versus bi-directional, etc. No calibration issues.

I am using the 3M IJ36-20 and this is the material I want to sell in my store.

 

[kristab]

Also, a few of my competitors are using the IJ36-20 or the Avery Transit vinyl and have vibrant, smooth, images with no grain so I know what I am looking for is out there, I just don't know what printer to use.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

What pass and dpi settings are you using. Also are you printing uni or big directional?

Your solvent can print smoother than that. Also is there a reason you are using a transit vinyl?

 

[kristab]

I've tried everything from 6 or 8 pass all the way up to 14. I've tried both bi-directional and uni. I've gone through about 50 feet of material making all of these changes to the settings. The transit vinyl is a material that I really like for what I am selling, it is smooth, matte, and repositionable. I know a few people use it so I know there is a printer out there that can print on it.

I'm not really trying to troubleshoot my machine, I am just trying to find out what type of printer would be best for stickers and small images. My desktop Epson gives me amazing quality, I just need something that can produce higher volumes.

 

[ikarasu]

Do you have any other material you can test on, just to rule out the printer not liking that material?

The good news is your prints should not look like that. Now we just need to figure out why they do - What is your tech guy saying about it? If he's been there 12 hours, he obviously doesn't think it's normal.

I would try a different media, just to rule out the IJ36 if nothing else... if you have another media to try on. Could be the printer doesn't like the media, or the media doesn't like eco-solv. I've never used IJ36, so I can't help you there.

If your tech can't figure it out, I don't think most people on here can. All the stuff I could suggest, are stuff your techs probably already tried... and I wouldn't want to waste your media trying different things thats already been tested. If your supplier has a demo unit setup, bring some IJ36 and sample files, see if they'll test their machine on your media.

 

[kristab]

Thank you for all of the help! We started using Roland's glossy vinyl that came with the machine, that is the first image I posted. We used that up, and then we tried some type of 3M glossy vinyl, I don't know the code. We then moved to the IJ36 because we wanted to see how it would look and there was no change.

Will a HP latex printer give me the quality I am looking for?

 

[ikarasu]

Your printer should give you the quality your looking for. I know it's frustrating, but I wouldn't give up just yet. Roland make some of the best printers, it should look way better than that. Problem is finding out why is not. Can you send one of the files your printing to me, so I can look and make sure it's not the file? Lucidify at Gmail.com


Here's a sample print from a HP 300. Just so you can see how fuzzy it should be.

Latex 300 Latex 300

You should be able to get close, or better than that on your printer. You'll always see dots off you're looking closely, but nothing like what you're seeing.


Edit - also wanted to add, are you aware expected durability on ij36 is 1 year? It's going to fade colors fast. I'd look into a little better media if your selling to businesses. Ij35 for instance is 5 years. The media we use is usually 7 years. Are you using overlam at all? Might make the dots less noticeable. But IMO, your printer shouldn't look like that.

 

[kristab]

The sample print you attached looks great to me! I don't really see the fuzz. Here is another example for you, this is a close up of this image on glossy vinyl. From far away this looks really nice. Close up, not so much.

I wish I had all day to troubleshoot this machine but I don't, I have a business to run. For the money I paid for this, it should be blowing me away with the image quality out of the box.

 

[ikarasu]

Yeah, something definitely looks wrong with your printer. It looks almost as if your printing on media thats already rugged (never used IJ36, but I'm presuming from my search its not).

Have you spoke to the dealer about taking it back? A lot of times they won't... and you dont want to be out what you paid for it.

I'm not trying to steer you away from a Latex - The reason I have the sample prints, is I'm like you... Purchasing a printer to "up my business". I've worked in the industry for a couple years, and decided to open my own shop selling decals/canvas, etc on the side of my current job. I'm not an expert in the least, never seen your printer in person... but I do know Roland makes some of the best printers, and the quality you're getting looks worst than even the worst print setting on the solvent I use at work, so IMO, something is wrong with yours. You can try bypassing your supplier/tech completely, E-mailing roland support and see what they say. they may know exactly whats wrong, or say its defective / get you a new one or something... doesn't hurt to try.

I don't believe HP latex does a printer/cutter combo. Is space an issue for you? Cheapest latex is the 110, which is a 54" printer. Costs around 7-8K... Then you'll also need a cutter. You can get a cheap offbrand one... but you'll probably run into the same issues you're running into now. so I'd suggest graphtec, Roland or mimaki... 54" Graphtec is another 6K. You could use a 30" for about 4K, but if you have a 54" printer, you may as well get a 54" cutter.. opens you up to more options.

To be honest, wide format printing is a lot more complex than using a desktop printer. And more expensive. You should research, and then research some more, before purchasing another printer. Take some media to your supplier, and some files...ask them to print you a copy. Go back a week or two later, and get them to do it again. I've been researching for months on what to buy, and still havent pulled the trigger quite yet.

Theres lots of stuff to consider. Look up eco solv vs latex. Ignore the roland site, it's pure hyperbole. But you will be replacing the heads every few liters of ink... thats $120 per head x 6 heads (They dont all die at the same time, mind you). theres just lots of considerations... No one can recommend a printer, as everyones/every companies needs differ. Some machines print reds like crap, some print greys like crap... Some require constant media profiling, etc.

Theres too many variables to recommend one. Most printers are great, theres not too much difference in quality between eco solv and latex, I'd say eco solv tends to be better, while latex prints on more media/dries faster. I think you just got a lemon... If you want to save space and stay with print/cut combo, I'd goto roland with the issue.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Do you know what DPI you are trying? This makes a big difference in the visibility of dots for close viewing.

You may want to look at a larger version of your Epson printer like the Stylus Pro or the P Series for indoor only high definition close viewing.

 

[Bill Modzel]

I don't think that you'll get anything better than what you are looking at with the Roland. What I see had nothing to do with the stock or passes but the actual picoliter size of the ink drops that the Roland it putting out. It simply cannot "squirt" a smaller ink droplet than what you are seeing.
I have an HP L26500 and get beautiful non grainy prints off it on just about any vinyl.
Be aware too that the lighter the color that you are printing the more obvious the droplets well be as it takes far less of them to print a pastel shade.

 

[Gino]

Looks like you might not be preparing your files correctly... or using the correct profiles. The printer you have can and will print flawless prints, if done correctly.

 

[bilge]

Hello!
I'm new to the forum and could really use some advice. I currently make stickers, labels, etc on regular paper and a month ago decided to upgrade to a large format printer/cutter. I found a dealer and we were sold a Roland SG-300. After over a month now of trying to get this thing to print clear, "non-grainy" images up close, I am at a loss as to whether this thing can actually do what I need. My dealer is giving me the run around and the technician pretty much said this isn't the right printer for me. I had zero knowledge of large format printers and the different types of ink that is available out there. I now know that perhaps I need a Latex or a Aqueous printer instead of this Eco-Solvent. I found a material I love that is a 3m matte vinyl that I want to be able to print on. The stickers I need to print are small (like 1-2 inches or less), and need to be smooth, crisp, and sharp up close (My little Epson inkjet can easily do this with no issues). I just want a material upgrade.

I'm really just lost and frustrated that I spent so much money and do not even have 1 sticker sheet I can sell because the quality is terrible. The machine is brand new, everything is calibrated perfectly, installed correctly, correct material settings, heat, etc. It has all been done. I decided I need to do some research myself which led me here.

The problem is that you got 4 color printer. Any 4 color printer prints grainy no matter wide or narrow, aqueous or solvent. I guess your small Epson has 6 colors. I have small 4 color Epson which I use only for office use. It's not comparable quality to my previous Stylus 1390. My HP D5800 prints grainier than Z6100. When I had JV5, I switched from 6 colors to 4 colors after that print quality dropped significantly. I had Roland RE640 4 color, also poor prints compared to my friend's print from VS 640 6 color configuration which has exact same printhead. If you looking for another printer, look at 6,7 or 8 color printer. 10 and 12 color printers are way too much. IMHO

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Color count has little to do with what they are seeing. Dot placement, dot count, dot pattern have more to do with it.

Even on our HP 360 printing in 150 dpi vs 1200dpi there is a significant quality difference on the same file. Also for type and small images higher passes uni directional gives a better image vs bidirectional

 

[TomK]

Like Bill Modzel said, it has a lot to do with the picoliter size of the ink drops, I tried and tried and tried to make our HP 300 Latex print photo quality prints, it'll never happen. I think the HP has a picoliter size 12, where some of the photo inkjets are 1.5, 3, or 4 picoliters.

We print a lot of small indoor stickers like you do, and after lots of $$ and time, we turned to photo quality inkjets to finally get the quality we were happy with.

There are at least 2 others on the forums that have threads about the same thing, grainy prints with the HP's for anything that is looked at close up.

 

[kristab]

Thanks Tom. I currently have a Roland so I was just looking for recommendations as to what printer would print small stickers and decals the best. I am open to any and all printers but I really want to print on vinyl. Do you have any ideas? I'm looking for a large format.

 

[kristab]

Looks like you might not be preparing your files correctly... or using the correct profiles. The printer you have can and will print flawless prints, if done correctly.

The files I have printed are the test files/images provided by Roland, my dealer and within the Versaworks program. For my files, I have created them in both Illustrator and CorelDraw using Vector images. Tried BMP too.

 

[kristab]

I don't think that you'll get anything better than what you are looking at with the Roland. What I see had nothing to do with the stock or passes but the actual picoliter size of the ink drops that the Roland it putting out. It simply cannot "squirt" a smaller ink droplet than what you are seeing.
I have an HP L26500 and get beautiful non grainy prints off it on just about any vinyl.
Be aware too that the lighter the color that you are printing the more obvious the droplets well be as it takes far less of them to print a pastel shade.

This is totally my thought on this. Thank you for your input!