Blue vinyl gone bad

[seesaw signs]

During late '07 and early '08 we rolled out a rebrand across 20 stores regionally. I recently got a call from the client (very politely) checking if what she was seeing on two of the signs was meant to be happening... I checked it out and nearly fainted.

The signs were put together using Oracal 751C King Blue 049 and Light Red 032 on Dibond brand ACM. The red is fine but the blue on this sign and one other sign at that store has pulled up and curled in on itself and turned to flaky brittle filth. Has anyone seen anything like this? The sign in the photo is 3050x3050mm, with a vertical join in the sheets and a horizontal one in the vinyl. All the joins were overlapped 5mm.

I'm doubly buggered because there are another two signs identical but for size at the same site, and the vinyl is still good on them. Not to mention the potential of another 80 signs ranging from 1000x1000mm to 8000x6000mm going bad...

Cheers,
Neil.

 

[gabagoo]

you better get your Oracal rep to see them PDQ!!!

I remember originally Oracle 751 series was not a real cast product, but they changed that at least 5 years back.

What is the vinyl applied to? could a contaminate have gotten onto the substrate?

 

[Techman]

I don't know what rating that vinyl has. Or whether it is cast or calendered. I know they say its cast but i never believed it.

But it sure looks like and acts like calendered vinyl.

 

[Service Sign Co]

In my experience, calenderd vinyl doesn't work well unless the surface is flat.translucent would be the best way to go on pan formed lexan.Even cast 651 works better.

 

[gabagoo]

Oracal 751 is supposed to be a premiumvinyl with at least a 7 year durabaility.

 

[Techman]

Oracal 751 is supposed to be a premiumvinyl with at least a 7 year durabaility

They lie.. This pic is proof of it.

Anytime I see a curling graphic like that I know its not REAL cast and can almost guarantee its not cast.

 

[seesaw signs]

The vinyl is sold as Premium Cast Vinyl 7-10 Year. It is applied to Dibond brand aluminium composite sheet (part of the Alucobond family). All flat wet application with a small amount of plain (quality) detergent.
The suppliers are looking into it and have been on to it which was a relief. No word on an outcome yet though so we'll wait and see.
At some point in late 07 there was a colour change in the vinyl. We were buying 50m logs of 1220 wide vinyl and had a lot of offcuts which were rendered unusable by the colour variation. The official line was that the vinyl was changed due to a "formulation optimisation" but it was within their tolerance. It wasn't within mine, but the supplier made good on my estimate of lost offcuts...

 

[scarface]

They lie.. This pic is proof of it.

Anytime I see a curling graphic like that I know its not REAL cast and can almost guarantee its not cast.

Hell, I've had Avery 4 Year vinyl withstand 3 + years outdoors when i first started 5 years ago

I honestly was about to switch to all oracal cut vinyl and now i'm nervous lol

 

[gabagoo]

They lie.. This pic is proof of it.

Anytime I see a curling graphic like that I know its not REAL cast and can almost guarantee its not cast.

I agree, I tried using it 8 or 9 years ago and realized it was very rigid, but I had heard that they actually started making a cast version,although I have never used it since

 

[Malkin]

In our shop we have always referred to cast vinyl as "high performance" but nowadays I am seeing that moniker associated with calendered, as well as "premium". It can be confusing

We have always had good luck with the Gerber 220 and/or 3M 7125 series for cast films.

 

[ndemond]

I am going to add that the vertical seam in the substrate had something to do with the split in the blue vinyl because it seems to follow that seam down the middle. Also you mentioned a wet application which also adds to the problem.
The dirt started collecting around the edges even before it started shrinking, so the water was not completely gone under the vinyl where it got to the edge and sat. And never adhered properly.
The other 2 signs at that location.? Facing which way or under overhangs?

Nancy

 

[seesaw signs]

Thanks Nancy,
I know from our workflow patterns that the sign would have sat in the shop for between a few days and a week prior to installation so it should have dried sufficiently. The specs on the vinyl recommend wet application using a small amount of detergent. Even suggest a brand of detergent.
The other signs are external facing N/E and S/E so not so much exposure to full sun.
The bits that get me are where the vinyl has just pulled apart on itself and why no damage to the red???
I read in some forums a while back about similar issues with blue vinyl but from memory it was another brand. So far no other stores ion the rollout have reported problems, so fingers crossed...

 

[SignosaurusRex]

I am going to add that the vertical seam in the substrate had something to do with the split in the blue vinyl because it seems to follow that seam down the middle. Also you mentioned a wet application which also adds to the problem.
The dirt started collecting around the edges even before it started shrinking, so the water was not completely gone under the vinyl where it got to the edge and sat. And never adhered properly.
The other 2 signs at that location.? Facing which way or under overhangs?

Nancy

Exposure has a great deal to do with life expectancy. 751 is rated at up to 8 years and you are complaining at 12+? Wet application? Gimme A break. What are you whining about? CA-CHANG...redo time at customer expense. It lasted longer than the last Chevy P-U that my neighbor bought.

 

[Mosh]

3 years you need to replace them, at your cost, just to save your reputation. We switch from 3M to Orcal 751 around 6-7 years ago, now we are finding this was not such a great idea and are going back to 3M. Some stuff looks great, but some looks like your pic. I have a sign I did in 1988 with gerber (3M) facing the hot sun to the west and it still looks great troday. Hard to beat 3M quality.

 

[ndemond]

Exposure has a great deal to do with life expectancy. 751 is rated at up to 8 years and you are complaining at 12+? Wet application? Gimme A break. What are you whining about? CA-CHANG...redo time at customer expense. It lasted longer than the last Chevy P-U that my neighbor bought.

During late '07 and early '08 we rolled out a rebrand across 20 stores regionally. I recently got a call from the client (very politely) checking if what she was seeing on two of the signs was meant to be happening... I checked it out and nearly fainted.
Cheers,
Neil.

Thinking this is more closer to 2+ years.
.........


Fingers crossed also, hope you at least get your vinyl cost. Good luck.

Nancy

 

[seesaw signs]

Exposure has a great deal to do with life expectancy. 751 is rated at up to 8 years and you are complaining at 12+? Wet application? Gimme A break. What are you whining about? CA-CHANG...redo time at customer expense. It lasted longer than the last Chevy P-U that my neighbor bought.

No-ones whining here mate. Do the sums. I invoiced the job in November 2007, that makes it two and a bit years by my count... just looking for some idea 'cause we're stuffed by it here. Flummoxed. Perturbed. Exasperated even.
At the time we didn't have a laminator over 1350 wide so the vinyl was hand applied. Personally I'm not too keen on dry applying metre square tiles of vinyl by hand.
Knock off, beerOclock.
Mmm, beeer...

 

[SignosaurusRex]

"F"!!! I'm looooooosing it! I need a vacation!!!!!!!!
Sorry Bro, I don't know what to say other than "Good Luck". I never seen that crap except with the "A" vinyl.

I'll show this thread to the wife and maybe I can get a couple weeks away to the ranch.

 

[skyhigh]

Ahhhhh Rex, you do need a vacation (maybe its age creeping up on you) :ROFLMAO:
Surely you remember this?

This is also "king" blue & red, from the same manufacturer. Mine was on for 2.5 years before it went to chit in a hurry. I'm pretty sure this was done in May of 07.

Your problem has nothing to do with a wet application, or which way it facing......simply, they had a bad batch of this particular blue. Other than this one instance, I've never had a problem with "O", and still use quite a bit of it today.....but I do shy away from their blues.

EDIT..... Mine was "classic" blue, not king.

 

[seesaw signs]

"F"!!! I'm looooooosing it! I need a vacation!!!!!!!!
Sorry Bro, I don't know what to say other than "Good Luck". I never seen that crap except with the "A" vinyl.

I'll show this thread to the wife and maybe I can get a couple weeks away to the ranch.

Ha! Yeah I hear you.
Reminds me of a client who opens an email to me:

"Dear Neil,

are you under a lot of pressure and perhaps needing a holiday?"

This is after about 5 meetings with him and his wife, three site inspections and two quotes - and no deposit - and I fired off an email requesting a bit of dough before proceeding further.


He goes on (this is for real, no joke, no word of a lie):

"i did not ask you what you were clear about or not...i asked you for a better price, a discount, normal business practice is asking for a discount, if i did not, i would not be doing myself a favour.

"i notice that you went from kind regards to regards, i am wondering what that is about.

"as for your time, what about my time, what about how long do we have on this planet, another few seconds or another life time?

"my world goes something like this.....some one comes along for a session, spends half an hour finding out what they will get, benefit from the session with me, takes 10 minutes to change and get on the table and another 5 to 10 after the session in discussion, and what do i charge, only for the hour of the actual session, that is how it goes, and i give thanks that someone has come to me, enriching my life with their needs, energy and "money".
i give thanks that i can do what i love doing doing, benefit others and get paid.

"as per my last email, we have designed a 1m width, you are quoting a 1.2m width.....does that effect the price and your plans.

"is it one sheet or will there be joins?

"can the sign be mounted at the same level as the next door neighbors?

"this is information i need before depositing money into your bank account.

"warm thanks"

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What do you say to that???

He didn't get any further at our shop.

Cheers,
Neil.

 

[andy]

Do Oracal make the same King Blue colour in another grade of vinyl?

It's not unheard of for suppliers to switch grades depending on what they have in stock or what they want to shift. If King Blue comes in various grades then I'd be suspicious.

If it is the right grade then Oracal have a serious problem... the damage on your photos is exactly what happens to calendered- the film shrinks like made cracking and splitting as it battles with the adhesive.

Whatever the issue Oracal is at fault.

Wet app on branded Dibond is no problem. Vertical seam overlap on dibond is no problem (dibond has a thermal expansion factor smaller than any other sign substrate).

From what you've said you paid to dollar for one of the best sheet substrates and followed best practice by specifying and using what you believed to be a high performance cast- I can't see anything negligent in your processes.