Competition for the Versacamm

[Greg]

As it exists, you'll need design software that can export to supported formats. I use EPS because it works via CorelDraw. Using Colorip 2.x, which comes with the Versacamm, you have to define a "color" as "CutPath" to use for cutting operations. The cut path has to be defined (drawn) in the drawing before exporting to EPS.

Once you have the EPS file you open it in Colorip. If you're cutting, the CutPath will be obvious as its indicated by a marquee line. That's also the place to check your cutline since a "hairline" outline is difficult to see in Corel.

There are, of course, slicker and more expensive options but CorelDraw works.

 

[ChiknNutz]

Hey Greg,

Can you use the "Contour" function in CoCut PRO to define the Cutpath? Haven't tried to use it myself (because I have no VersaCAMM yet but soon hopefully) but thought about this and wondered if it would work and/or be any easier. So how do you like your VersaCAMM so far? I've considered it for a while, but am still wondering if I can justify it since I am still part-timing it still. Seems like maybe a good way to work into full-time though once I get proficient with it

 

[Greg]

Good question. I've never tried it but if you can define a contour, save it or bring back into Corel....and then give the contour outline the color "CutPath", then export, it ought to work. All Colorip seems to care about is the "NAME" of the color outline.

I've had nothing but problems with CoCut Pro just cutting vinyl (perhaps its my setup) but its hit or miss to get the weed lines to cut. I've almost given up on it.

 

[andy]

Cadet & Grenadier

Hi,

I was reading about the Versacamm machine in this thread. Over here in the UK these machines have been re-worked and are marketed as the Cadet (30") and Grenadier (54"?)

The big difference is that these re worked Rolands take full solvent inks not the eco solvents that the standard Versacamm takes.

From what I hear these machines are shipping by the bucket load. Maybe you can get the same in the US? From what I hear true solvent inks eliminate the wipe off effect mentioned in this post and are generally more robust. I have fitted a stack of output from these machines- some unlaminated- and they were great quality.

www.bplightbrigade.co.uk

This is one of the dealers here in the UK.

Hope this info is useful

 

[idsign]

Andy,

Thanks for the post. It made the thread pop right back to the top. I never saw the Fred's initial post on this thread dating back to April.

I was about ready to pop for the VersaCAMM but now realize that I need more research.

Barry

 

[Fred Weiss]

Barry you may want to make sure you read my follow up post in the News thread about the Mutoh Jr. http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1388


I suspect the Mutoh Jr. is a superior system but the plotter they would have you match with it is not a good choice.

I have also spoken with a Mimaki distributor regarding whether or not that company will be coming to market with a 30" - 36" PNC system and the response was that Mimaki has been told by Epson (who makes the printheads) that they will not permit Mimaki to use their printheads in that size a unit. So it may be that the only two players here will be Mutoh and Roland.

With regard to solvent vs. eco-solvent ..... I tested a Versacamm eco-solvent print against a Mimaki solvent print with a denatured alcohol wipe. The Versacamm wiped clean in one swipe while the Mimaki wiped 90% clean in three swipes. That, IMHO, isn't enough better to justify the required ventilation system and other issues with full solvent based systems.

Either one, again IMHO, should be protected with lamination for durable applications.

 

[Barry]

I agree with Fred here, it seems that the full solvent inks are really hard on the internals of your machines. You will probably need to replace heads atleast twice as much at $800 a set, not to mention the extra maintance that will be required to keep the heads line, etc from clogging. Add in the extra ventalation equipment and its just not worth it.

Ive had my Versacamm for a few months now and this is a great machine. Good print quality, good support, good software. What else could you ask for? It would be nice to have a larger machine, but it just was not in my budget.

 

[Greg]

Key issue, regardless of what you might be told is ICC profiles. I was cussing up a storm there for awhile (I was told just use the "Generic" profiles) and couldn't figure out why I had gobs of ink, bubbles, smears, etc. Changed to the proper profile and "Waa-La!" it looked like it was supposed to look.

True, some vinyl doesn't have profiles and some of the other profiles might work with it. I'd dang sure try it with a small test graphic before I wasted yards of vinyl.

BTW, I have yet to try High Resolution (14,400) as the need hasn't been there (yet).

I also put an unlaminated graphic on my truck (the one in my sig) for a test. Looks good to me and its been a couple months. No, I didn't try the wire brush test on it yet

 

[ChiknNutz]

Although I know the Summa DC3 is a totally different system (thermal) and op costs are a bit higher, how do these compare or do they simply not compare? Is it just a different market, or would either one of these be a good choice? Not sure of all the different things to consider since I don't have any digital printer currently, but would appreciated any comments. Thanks.

 

[Dale Horn]

I think the DC3 ships FOB Boston for about 25,000 . You'll need a matching printer and foils. The DC3 is a thermal printer.

I'd say comparing a Versacamm and a DC3 is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Sounds like you're talking Canadian $ there Dale. The DC3 has been pretty actively sold for just under $20,000. Not sure how much more the DC3 Plus goes for .... the difference being that you can remove the vinyl for lamination and return it to the machine for cutting.


I don't see it as apples and oranges at all. Especially since most clients these days think all signs and graphics are printed. I personally could never get too excited about the DC3 because:

1. High supply cost
2. No width adjustment for media .... you run 36" film from Summa period.
3. Very little aftermarket choices ..... single source for supplies - no competition
4. Very little film choices and very few spot colors
5. Adequate but not exceptional looking output in CMYK mode
6. No dealers .... all training, service, supplies and support comes from a central location

Yes it's thermal resin which is inherently more durable than eco-solvent ink but highly overrated for unprotected use out of doors, which is why they came out with the DC3 Plus.

The VersaCamm and other Roland inkjets, the Mimaki, the Mutoh all service the same market for printed decals but add banners to the mix. The only thing they don't do is spot colors so there are no metallic foils or ability to lay down white on clear. But I think we both agree the Gerber Edge is the clear choice for these needs.

What the inkjets do provide is:

1. Much lower supply cost .... typically about 25% to 30% of the cost of thermal resins.
2. Adjustable width to accomodate any width material you want to run.
3. Lots of competition and choices in the aftermarket with competing dealers
4. Print and cut yourchoice of materials .... no spot colors though
5. CMYK output that is so superior looking as to defy comparison
6. Lots of dealers. Training, service, supplies and support often comes to you at the local level

It seems to me that the Edge is the way to go for smaller print and cut work and the inkjets matched with an OPOS equipped plotter and a laminator are the way to go for wide format. The DC3 is positioned between the two serving neither market as well.

 

[Dale Horn]

No that was 25,000 USD FOB Boston. That's what the reseller (only one as far as I know) charges for the DC3 here.

Good points Fred,

I'm still going to stay with the apples and oranges analogy. While the DC3 and the Versacamm are wider format they're quite different in how they print and the total capital cost required to print .

Each machine has it's own challeges-
Another point to consider is usage with the Versacamm - if the machine isn't used every day is there potential for head clogging? Some other watchouts could be banding, mottling, cracking, cockling, bleeding, curl, metamerism, and fading. It makes thermal resin printing look quite simple.

If in doubt - sub contract the work rather than purchasing until volume is high enough to see how the product stands up as it's used.
I haven't seen any laminated inkjet printed products go over convex curves on vehicles and last through the semi truck washes through the winter.

Maybe there's more of a fit for short term promotional partial wraps with the Versacamm.

With the DC3 the main competion is with solvent printers. I agree the DC3 doesn't have a clear advantage in one particular area which makes investing in the technology less attractive.

 

[ColorFast]

Laminating Digital Prints w/ frog Juice

I don't know to much about the printing part of this business, but I've heard people talk about about laminating digital prints. Can prints from the versacamm, edge, roland pnc be laminated with clear coat or frog juice, or are they not compatible with with these prints? Thanks.

George

I was reading the Beacon Graphics catalog in which they sell frog juice and they DO NOT recommend it for digital prints. Not sure if I trust this as they are the same company that sells the Epson 7800/9800's as a "great outdoor solution". Just thought i'd give a heads up.

 

[threeputt]

Not too long ago, I too was in a quandary as to which wide format machine to buy. In reality it's a choice first, between two differing technologies. Fred states the case nicely (against the DC3).

I can tell you that we had a job applicant that was up from California and he said (during his interview here), that at his previous shop, a big plant, they had about one of every machine made. He said that the Roland Versacamm 54" was the hardest working, most trouble-free of all the equipment. Didn't know about operating costs, he said, but he thought it was very economical too.

Didn't take me long to get one after seeing a few of them run at other shops. I have not been unsatisfied one little bit with mine. The darn machine runs and runs and puts out far more work than you can imagine.

All the talk about fumes (from sellers of machines with the other technology) was just that, talk, designed to scare buyers away from the Roland. You can scarcely hear the machine run, unlike the Edge, (which is a goold little machine in and of itself) and there is NO smell. (using the Eco-Sol Max inks)

We laminate so the "wipe off" issue isn't really an issue for us.

We love our machine and recommend it. God, this sounds like a commercial. Sorry.

 

[iSign]

the danger of machines that don't smell... is that you may think it is not emitting poisenous fumes. IT IS!!

...anyway, I'm sure you knew that, but for those who don't... VENTILATION IS A MUST for ANY solvent printers including "eco-solvent"

 

[WVB]

The DC3 has been replaced with the DC4 so do the same answers apply to the new DC4?

 

[Fred Weiss]

Pretty much. I looked at it at the show.

With the DC-4 I'm pretty sure you are now locked into even wider material without the ability to run smaller widths. You still have very limited places to buy supplies and get support or service. As far as I know you still can't run a variety of materials or print banners with it or have options from any aftermarket suppliers.

So it's good for large print-and-cut pressure sensitive graphics. Is that what you want it for and do you have enough of that need to cost justify it?

 

[RobGF]

Pretty much. I looked at it at the show.

With the DC-4 I'm pretty sure you are now locked into even wider material without the ability to run smaller widths...

Not that I am a big fan of the product but they are claiming 24" minimum width on the machine.

Summa DC4 Features
• Prints and cuts up to 50.2 inches wide
• 304x304 and 304x609 dpi print modes
• Contour-cuts at up to 24 inches per second
• Variable width media from 24 to 54 inches
• Holds and auto-exchanges up to 8 colors
• Process, spot-color and spot-metallic printing
• ColorControl RIP software for Windows
• Double-density print mode for back-lit signs

 

[GB2]

"The VersaCamm and other Roland inkjets, the Mimaki, the Mutoh all service the same market for printed decals but add banners to the mix. The only thing they don't do is spot colors so there are no metallic foils or ability to lay down white on clear. But I think we both agree the Gerber Edge is the clear choice for these needs."

Fred...forgive my ignorance but, could you please clarify this a bit. The digital printers have the ability to print consistent solid color, correct? I'm not sure I understand your comparison to Gerber Spot Color.

 

[Fred Weiss]

"The VersaCamm and other Roland inkjets, the Mimaki, the Mutoh all service the same market for printed decals but add banners to the mix. The only thing they don't do is spot colors so there are no metallic foils or ability to lay down white on clear. But I think we both agree the Gerber Edge is the clear choice for these needs."

Fred...forgive my ignorance but, could you please clarify this a bit. The digital printers have the ability to print consistent solid color, correct? I'm not sure I understand your comparison to Gerber Spot Color.

Yes but this is done with percentage color mixing in concert with color management profiles. Results will vary widely with the experience of the operator and other factors. Most process color systems have difficulty in achieving vibrant colors across the spectrum. Spot colors are dedicated preset colors just like vinyl that will give you a consistent result time after time. If I load a Ruby Red ribbon in my Edge, I get Ruby Red without variance and without halftone patterns. If I do a repeat of the job a year later, it will look the same. The difference is consistency and predictability.