"Crowd Source" design...

[letterman7]

You summed it up perfectly, Dan. Many of us in the sign industry can't command the dollars (and respect) that you have built so brilliantly. As Kraig mentioned, it's a tough sell to a new client who needs a logo/website/whatever and expects that as part of their signage package. I'm sure most of us that are faced with that situation simply bury the costs into the package (or should). "Comprehensive brand approach" simply doesn't exist in some sectors, certainly not around here!

 

[HulkSmash]

I couldn't agree more. Sites like 99 design do nothing but perpetuate the idea that design is something that should be cheap and is an easy skill. I'm a print operator largely due to the fact that I felt my designs were extremely undervalued and the horrible people I had designed for.

Now I choose my design projects when I feel like doing it, usually don't charge as high of a rate as I used to, and go all out when its time to get to work. So much more fun than designing 9-5 for people who have no appreciation, alter the design in ways that make me embarrassed to say it's my work, and generally have no frame of reference when it comes to things looking good </rant>.

There are High end design firms who work on sites like that. And most of the designs are great....Some cookie cutter, and similar to others.. but still great. I am by no means defending these sites, but they are a legit and logical way to get it done. And one would be ignorant to say that some great designs do not come from sites like these. Last time I checked no one was forcing these designers/firms to put up their designs without the risk of not getting awarded with the job or money. If this is ruining the industry they're doing it themselves.

 

[ForgeInc]

There are High end design firms who work on sites like that. And most of the designs are great....Some cookie cutter, and similar to others.. but still great.

Care to share some of that info? I'd love to see a design firm who participates in crowdsourcing projects, so I can personally send them an email about how horrible spec work is for our industry.

 

[HulkSmash]

Care to share some of that info? I'd love to see a design firm who participates in crowdsourcing projects, so I can personally send them an email about how horrible spec work is for our industry.

sure go to 99 designs, and browse the projects and there are a ton whos portfolios link to corporate design companies.

 

[ddarlak]

There obviously is a need for this company or it wouldn't exist.

For the designers out there who are worried about this, Stop.

They are not stealing your work, they are not undervaluing your work. You never would have worked for the people that are getting these services, you cater to the higher end company.

Years ago, Sams Club had a kiosk in the club promoting Sams Club Banners, Decals and Car magnetics, I didn't care one bit, they were not going to steal my customers.

Kinko's came and went, Office Max is selling signs and banners... OK for them, they still are not touching my clients.

Neither is 99 touching yours.

I think who ever started that company is brilliant, getting FREE labor and paying peanuts.... Ahhhhhh America!!!!

 

[Joe Diaz]

I completely agree, Joe. But how many potential clients are willing to pay thousands of dollars for a logo anymore? Damn few, I imagine, when it comes right down to it. How many have come into your office and were actually willing to pay your price without some negotiations? I'm not knocking your talent or anyone else on the forum here - many of you guys and gals are far above where I should be at my age. But it comes down to a matter of survival - sites like 99 have people that don't give a crap about the value of a logo. They are only looking for something quick and cheap. If I can knock something out in under an hour and happen to "win" a couple hundred bucks, that's worth it to me. Devaluing the industry? Perhaps, but it's been happening for decades. Nowadays there are darn few companies, large or small, that give a whistle about what the sign industry or designers consider valuable time. Try to talk to them about that and those companies start shopping elsewhere.

Don't you see? The only reason so many are unwilling to pay a certain price for creative services,,, the reason they don't respect or value what we do is because so many in our industry or other graphic design industries don't value their own services and don't ask for higher prices. Participating in these sites reinforces that idea and encourages that behavior. Spec work sites and the people that use it are counting on the fact that so many designers don't value what they do. If we as an industry, like so many other industries, didn't give clients the option to get speculative work for free, they wouldn't expect it and would have no choice but to hire someone for their time and talent.

Check this out: http://twitter.com/specwatch It's mind boggling how so many in our industry are so willing to participate in something where it is so easy for others to take advantage of or simply rip off designers. Look at how often someone closes a contest and doesn't pay anyone at all after many designers willingly give away their time and ideas.

 

[letterman7]

If we as an industry, like so many other industries, didn't give clients the option to get speculative work for free, they wouldn't expect it and would have no choice but to hire someone for their time and talent. And therein has always been the problem. The clients I have and get referred to me are 'milk toast' clientele usually - the average home builder or local small business. They don't have the money to spend on a high end marketing campaign or want to develop a visual identity outside of their immediate needs - trucks, business cards and shirts (for example). Am I undervaluing my services if I create a quick logo that works for them for little money? Not at all - they are still purchasing other items from me, and that makes them a happy and hopefully repeat customer.
I have a feeling that the conversation is broaching on the definitions between an advertising agency and sign shop. Both yourself, Joe, and Dan have killer advertising agencies that happen to have a signage component. With that you gents can command a decent price for the individuals that recognize the worth in the research and idea generation. For the rest of us, we do what we can to encourage our clients to see the value in the work - and have to sit back and hear them say, 'well, I can get it done here for next to nothing' and risk losing the sale.

 

[signswi]

99designs, and spec work in general, isn't design. It doesn't incorporate design practices. It's just drawing for a client. There's no market research, no persona development or targeting, no iterative multi-disciplinary processes, etc. It's glorified doodling on a specific topic and is not design by any stretch of the word.

While I'm totally against spec work, at least crowd sourcing gets the bottom of the barrel, annoying, cheap and useless clients out of the pool.

 

[ColoPrinthead]

Don't you see? The only reason so many are unwilling to pay a certain price for creative services,,, the reason they don't respect or value what we do is because so many in our industry or other graphic design industries don't value their own services and don't ask for higher prices. Participating in these sites reinforces that idea and encourages that behavior. Spec work sites and the people that use it are counting on the fact that so many designers don't value what they do. If we as an industry, like so many other industries, didn't give clients the option to get speculative work for free, they wouldn't expect it and would have no choice but to hire someone for their time and talent.

Check this out: http://twitter.com/specwatch It's mind boggling how so many in our industry are so willing to participate in something where it is so easy for others to take advantage of or simply rip off designers. Look at how often someone closes a contest and doesn't pay anyone at all after many designers willingly give away their time and ideas.

I like how the watermark looks like the old man is flashing http://www.specwatch.info/jan.1.2010.html
:ROFLMAO:

 

[Joe Diaz]

And therein has always been the problem. The clients I have and get referred to me are 'milk toast' clientele usually - the average home builder or local small business. They don't have the money to spend on a high end marketing campaign or want to develop a visual identity outside of their immediate needs - trucks, business cards and shirts (for example). Am I undervaluing my services if I create a quick logo that works for them for little money? Not at all - they are still purchasing other items from me, and that makes them a happy and hopefully repeat customer.
I have a feeling that the conversation is broaching on the definitions between an advertising agency and sign shop. Both yourself, Joe, and Dan have killer advertising agencies that happen to have a signage component. With that you gents can command a decent price for the individuals that recognize the worth in the research and idea generation. For the rest of us, we do what we can to encourage our clients to see the value in the work - and have to sit back and hear them say, 'well, I can get it done here for next to nothing' and risk losing the sale.

I can almost guarantee we get the same type of clients, and I can tell you this, they can afford all of those things. They have purchased much more expensive things for their business, some of which I would argue have less value to the success of their company, but I guess that's a matter of perspective. They just don't always want to invest in professional design... at first. It's our job to convince them, and in most cases it's not that hard. It just makes sense to invest in your businesses identity. There are a lot of tools you can use to convince your clients this the second they walk in the door.

A lot of shops see design as a selling tool used almost exclusively to get the sign job, but you can easily set yourself up to sell design as a service on it's own, and through that get even more than just sign work, but you have to sell it as a valued and essential service first.

Really that's not even the point here. You are now talking about the amount you get paid, that's not really the issue, The issue is getting paid at all. In spec work there is a very high chance that you may not get paid at all, and for some odd reason, to you, others in this industry and many in the general public, that seems normal. And that's kind of a problem if you are trying to convince everyone that what you create has value. If it were the norm to pay $1000 or more for a small businesses logo, it would be much easier to ask for that price would it not? Instead it's normal to have 100s of artists compete, where only one wins a few hundred dollars, and we as an industry are not only letting it happen, but many of us are doing it to ourselves.

 

[ddarlak]

at least crowd sourcing gets the bottom of the barrel, annoying, cheap and useless clients out of the pool.

even better way of stating my point....

 

[Dan Antonelli]

I can almost guarantee we get the same type of clients, and I can tell you this, they can afford all of those things.

This is so true. The real challenge most shops have is that they cannot adequately make a strong case as to why this component is the most valuable part of the equation. They themselves do not present a cohesive brand; they offer no case studies illustrating the importance of an effective brand. Its very hard to sell this service, and get the right dollars for it when the theory is not put into practical practice. If you can illustrate in simple terms what a good site sign, stationery set, uniform/t-shirt and truck wrap looks like for a client you've branded, I guarantee you'd sell more of them.

So while I can accept the fact that customers can often be blamed as to 'why you can't sell that here', a fair amount of the blame rest solely in the shop themselves for not effectively marketing this expertise.

Selling design is a process, that takes time to build. You have to choose if that's where you want to take your business, and distinguish it among the others. Here's what I can tell you about being that 'shop': I get more and more calls every day from clients complaining that their local sign company can't do what we do. Imagine if your shop had that local reputation - just like Joe's shop does. People want good design - especially now after the influx of such horribly designed wraps that has saturated the market.

Everyone does start somewhere. My first logo in 1997 sold for $25. I've said repeatedly that the more you can do view and market your shop as a purveyor of service, not commodities, the more the perception of your business changes. But you have to market it as such.

 

[g&eprinting]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz's this thread is still going..

These sites do not hurt me. They are just sad :-( _ _ _ _ _ _

Just got $360 for a logo and the one before that $2,100 and the one before that
well I don't want to brag ;-)...

Yes I do give away way too many layouts that take my time and I'm ashamed of when I think they are going to use my print services,,,, and sometimes they don't . Well screwed myself.

My last layout was $400 for a wrap I did not print.

It's like throwing away your brothers coin collection and finding out it was worth something.

Don't all your freaking softwares have editing timers on them. They are there for a reason............................................................................................................


Some people actually get paid ONLY for designing.

it is all perspective.

 

[signage]

This is so true. The real challenge most shops have is that they cannot adequately make a strong case as to why this component is the most valuable part of the equation. They themselves do not present a cohesive brand; they offer no case studies illustrating the importance of an effective brand. Its very hard to sell this service, and get the right dollars for it when the theory is not put into practical practice. If you can illustrate in simple terms what a good site sign, stationery set, uniform/t-shirt and truck wrap looks like for a client you've branded, I guarantee you'd sell more of them.

So while I can accept the fact that customers can often be blamed as to 'why you can't sell that here', a fair amount of the blame rest solely in the shop themselves for not effectively marketing this expertise.

Selling design is a process, that takes time to build. You have to choose if that's where you want to take your business, and distinguish it among the others. Here's what I can tell you about being that 'shop': I get more and more calls every day from clients complaining that their local sign company can't do what we do. Imagine if your shop had that local reputation - just like Joe's shop does. People want good design - especially now after the influx of such horribly designed wraps that has saturated the market.

Everyone does start somewhere. My first logo in 1997 sold for $25. I've said repeatedly that the more you can do view and market your shop as a purveyor of service, not commodities, the more the perception of your business changes. But you have to market it as such.

 

[g&eprinting]

Dan is right,, whats the case if you go to get some video edited. It's not work because the person works on a computer. Couldn't they just sell you the dvd's..


HA HA I'd rather be a designer than a printer, but I need the money from both. LOL