Fair Banner Printing Pricing.

[rjssigns]

It is NO WONDER the banner printing industry is in the condition it is.

When anyone who is in, [or wants to join ] the sign industry, and then in an OPEN FORUM is foolish enough to ask and have answered pricing about ANY product or service we offer it is little wonder why this once great monetary opportunity has become the cess pool of "I can do it cheaper than you can" we see before us.

Because of the ease with which ANYONE who can use a search engine and have the entire internet open before them in mere moments, and you stand at your front door and look longingly up and down the former busy streets of your little city and ponder "where are the customers that used to frequent our shop"?

They have read your posts about how cheaply banners are being sold from TRUE WHOLESALERS, then compare that price [as mentioned numerous times in this post alone] to what you are TRYING to get in your local market.

If you are loosing business to the price shoppers you only have to enter your bathroom and look in the mirror to view your enemy.


As Tom Hanks said a number of years ago in a famous movie [look it up on Google] "STUPID IS ,AS STUPID DOES".

Your former customers are reading your posts every day. Just like you came here to get information? The Internet is as much your enemy as your friend.

THINK ABOUT THIS the next time you post in an OPEN BLOG>

Our forum has nothing to do with banner printing being in the "toilet" as you claim. Far to easy to Google or Bing cheap banners and find dozens of places selling direct to the public. The age of the internet is both blessing and curse. It has flattened the earth at the same time exposing us to manifold increase in competition.

To say we here at Signs 101 caused the demise is a myopic view of the market and the forces within.

 

[Gino]

It is NO WONDER the banner printing industry is in the condition it is.

When anyone who is in, [or wants to join ] the sign industry, and then in an OPEN FORUM is foolish enough to ask and have answered pricing about ANY product or service we offer it is little wonder why this once great monetary opportunity has become the cess pool of "I can do it cheaper than you can" we see before us.

Because of the ease with which ANYONE who can use a search engine and have the entire internet open before them in mere moments, and you stand at your front door and look longingly up and down the former busy streets of your little city and ponder "where are the customers that used to frequent our shop"?

They have read your posts about how cheaply banners are being sold from TRUE WHOLESALERS, then compare that price [as mentioned numerous times in this post alone] to what you are TRYING to get in your local market.

If you are loosing business to the price shoppers you only have to enter your bathroom and look in the mirror to view your enemy.


As Tom Hanks said a number of years ago in a famous movie [look it up on Google] "STUPID IS ,AS STUPID DOES".

Your former customers are reading your posts every day. Just like you came here to get information? The Internet is as much your enemy as your friend.

THINK ABOUT THIS the next time you post in an OPEN BLOG>

Our forum has nothing to do with banner printing being in the "toilet" as you claim. Far to easy to Google or Bing cheap banners and find dozens of places selling direct to the public. The age of the internet is both blessing and curse. It has flattened the earth at the same time exposing us to manifold increase in competition.

To say we here at Signs 101 caused the demise is a myopic view of the market and the forces within.

Well, it might not be the culprit, but being the largest and most viewed sign forum on the globe, I would venture to say it has done a great deal of damage.

The highlighted sentence in the above "quote" is the one that gets me as to how nobody realizes this. It might not be yours or my customers viewing these threads, but with the thousands upon thousands of end-users seeing trolling and looking for deals like this.... it has to be hurting some sign shop somewhere in more ways than one.

There are those who will say, is your shop so dependent upon a banner here or a banner there..... ?? Where's that old saying now..... ya gotta start somewhere ?? There are one and two man shops who only produce a few hundred or thousand a week and to them, this is damaging information to know their customers can get this stuff for 99¢ instead of the norm at $3.50 or $9.50. As mentioned, this was once a very good industry to make a decent living, but now it's all about who has the fastest and biggest machine and can do this stuff for next to nothing and still make a killing. While we have the ability to make signs for very little cost, due to buying power, equipment and knowledge, we still keep our prices where they belong..... and ya know what ?? We still have a good customer base..... even at our high prices. Because we're worth it and that's what the majority around here need to figure out. How to sell their wares and not whore themselves out.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

When I worked in my brother in law's shop in So Cal, we used to get $8.25 sft. for banners. That was over a decade ago and not everyone could afford a large format printer either.
I'd lower my prices to $3.50 a sq.ft. if it kept it running all day long. But that's not the case. I'm priced comparable to the shops around me. Which is probably way more than what you can charge in California these days. We don't mess with die-cut vinyl either. Even if it's just a single line of black text on a white banner...it's easier, and faster & less labor (therefore cheaper) to just digitally print it.
So...I guess I didn't answer your question exactly. It's a mix of what do you need to charge to make money, and what will customers in your area be willing to pay you instead of your competition. If you are more expensive, have a reason that makes sense to them. I have more overhead won't be a good reason for them.

 

[J Hill Designs]

I would like to point out that this is in the pricing forum, which is not viewable by anyone, nor will it come up in search results..

It is NO WONDER the banner printing industry is in the condition it is.

When anyone who is in, [or wants to join ] the sign industry, and then in an OPEN FORUM is foolish enough to ask and have answered pricing about ANY product or service we offer it is little wonder why this once great monetary opportunity has become the cess pool of "I can do it cheaper than you can" we see before us.

Because of the ease with which ANYONE who can use a search engine and have the entire internet open before them in mere moments, and you stand at your front door and look longingly up and down the former busy streets of your little city and ponder "where are the customers that used to frequent our shop"?

They have read your posts about how cheaply banners are being sold from TRUE WHOLESALERS, then compare that price [as mentioned numerous times in this post alone] to what you are TRYING to get in your local market.

If you are loosing business to the price shoppers you only have to enter your bathroom and look in the mirror to view your enemy.


As Tom Hanks said a number of years ago in a famous movie [look it up on Google] "STUPID IS ,AS STUPID DOES".

Your former customers are reading your posts every day. Just like you came here to get information? The Internet is as much your enemy as your friend.

THINK ABOUT THIS the next time you post in an OPEN BLOG>

 

[HDvinyl]

can we PLEASE put a limit on FONT SIZE?

 

[Fred Weiss]

I find it troubling how many more posts are about price as compared to how to design, produce or sell a sign.

 

[HDvinyl]

You need more Signs101 Police to find all the posers.

 

[Gino]

I find it troubling how many more posts are about price as compared to how to design, produce or sell a sign.

Cause once you own a computer, some software and have some buttons to push to make this stuff..... you already know the hard part of the industry. Now ya hafta figure out how to sell your stuff for less than the other guy in order to make any sales. That's where this place comes in handy.

No one wants to discuss any pertinet sign issues or talk shop. That's boring and detrimental to your bottom line. Ya might just find out how much [or little] ya really know about this line of work, face reality and quit.

 

[Biker Scout]

The industry was bound to head to a tipping point. As printers got cheaper, larger companies with larger resources buying direct, importing machines, etc. When I first got into wide format, MacDermid ColorSpan was almost the only player in town. I thought I was going to rock the billboard industry, because all the media houses were still doing blue backs. Now, they all have their own printers, wider than school buses, print for practically next to nothing, and often times rarely even charge for the banner. They get them on the monthly fees.

And as a business person looking for an industry to get into, and not having any sign background you see that wide format is a huge growing industry. So you research the business model, and printers and see that 200% - 300% is healthy margin that you think you could make work. (Not realizing that most of the smaller sign industry was actually enjoying 1000% - 1500% mark-up this whole time) You are just looking at numbers on a sheet. An import printer you've never heard of, a container full of materials from the manufacturer, and think hey, this can't be that hard.

Meanwhile your deep pockets, and outside sales team is kicking the nads of the smaller mom & pop shops who were bringing up the industry to a respectable income generator for their employees and families. Now it's the backside of the bell curve and a race to the bottom. For the widest, fastest, cheapest. And you know, the quality is really pretty good on the 3.2m machines now. So it's no longer about quality of the print. Just customer service. Which is what you should still be about. This is a solutions based industry. Your clients have needs, you should be coming up with the solutions. Faster, more economically. Take advantage of economy of scale, and the super cheap wholesale print houses.

 

[Mosh]

I find it troubling how many more posts are about price as compared to how to design, produce or sell a sign.

Cause 99% of walk in customers this is the first thing they ask "how much is a..."
not "how could we..."

 

[Fred Weiss]

Cause 99% of walk in customers this is the first thing they ask "how much is a..."
not "how could we..."

That's where knowing something about sales techniques comes in.

This is my 31st year full time in the sign business. In that time I have always been profitable and have never been close to being the lowest price in town.

 

[Marco]

Need Banner

Thickness of material, grommets, etc all considered. I need a banner. 19'x1.5'.

 

[Biker Scout]

4-Over has crept into the wide format industry. I remember being so mad when they launched Grand4Mat... I thought I was going to be ruined.

Marco, I'm logged in and checked your banner out there... yeah, you might want to look there. You can make decent coin reselling to your client.

 

[rjssigns]

We need to sell value not price.

Gino's comment about this forum being the most widely read and it's potential negative effects may have merit.
If so then we must all strive to post absolutely nothing about our business, ever. No more talking about products or techniques used, ever. Neither should the best equipment for a given purpose be posted, ever. Actually nothing to do with anything sign or sign related should be posted.

One can try to lay blame here or there. Yet with no hard data to back it up it doesn't hold water.

The internet is by far the biggest boon to, and also the bane of our existence. Anybody that sells anything has to deal with the vagaries of clients "knowing". The internet and those that inhabit it have immeasurably changed the landscape for business owners.

In closing: If Gino's comment is to be held as the truth then all members here are culpable in some way shape or form.

 

[Biker Scout]

I'm not worried about price anymore... because the hack down the street can't compete with my designs. That's what I sell... a brand image and my expertise.

 

[Locals Find!]

Got it!,

It appears that purchase of my old sc-500 was completely unnecessary and in fact counter productive!! - It would be bordering on insanity for me to buy scrim banner, inks (I use aftermarket), maintenance items, headaches & time to actually do large format printing jobs on my own printer in my own shop/office. In fact the wisest course of action would be for me to quote out banner printing jobs at say $3.00-$3.50/sq foot. When I get a client (I actually already have some) - I simply forward their image to the guys that do it at $.99 a square foot, tell my customer I'll have their banner to them in say 4-5 days (or whatever turnaroud the 99 centers offer for 99 cents) Once delivered to my satisfied customer, I sit back and rake in my 200% profit for basically doing nothing.

-t

This is how brokers are born right here.

 

[TyrantDesigner]

I'm not worried about price anymore... because the hack down the street can't compete with my designs. That's what I sell... a brand image and my expertise.

+1. This.

Aim for the cheapest customer, you get the cheapest customer. Just do good design work and have good customer relations skills and you can charge what you want. I almost never compete with the cheap guy ... they can keep that business ... it's a racket and they will break themselves keeping up with pennies when you can make dollars and go on vacation every once in a while. If they immediately start out with anything along the lines of 'what the cheapest you can go on ...' .... I tell the flat out I'm not the cheapest, I do quality work and if you want cheap, you'll get cheap. You want good, come to me. I don't tell them the price until we discuss things.

bickering about people talking about pricing.

really?

 

[lodcomm]

We need to sell value not price.

Gino's comment about this forum being the most widely read and it's potential negative effects may have merit.
If so then we must all strive to post absolutely nothing about our business, ever. No more talking about products or techniques used, ever. Neither should the best equipment for a given purpose be posted, ever. Actually nothing to do with anything sign or sign related should be posted.

One can try to lay blame here or there. Yet with no hard data to back it up it doesn't hold water.

The internet is by far the biggest boon to, and also the bane of our existence. Anybody that sells anything has to deal with the vagaries of clients "knowing". The internet and those that inhabit it have immeasurably changed the landscape for business owners.

In closing: If Gino's comment is to be held as the truth then all members here are culpable in some way shape or form.

Following this Logic, I'm fairly certain that there should be no discussion on say repair & maintenance of printers, plotters & such - Since those engaging is such discussion are cutting the throats and stealing business from say a Roland Certified Tech. Its certainly not fair at all to him/her to have someone come along and ask and be told how to access the "Secret" service mode, and perform ones own diagnostics.. The moderators need to cut access to those forums and make sure they are not indexed by the search engines & such.

In Fact, right after this post - I'm going directly over to jeepforum.com where I asked, and was told (By A practicing chrysler Mechanic) how to use my own Grand Cherokee jeep to program a new remote fob & a transponder key - Cutting Him Directly out of the $90.00 his shop would charge using the $8000.00 BCM/SCIM Programmer they have. I am going to let him know that Stupid is, as Stupid does - and he had absolutely no right to let out the Secret that Grand Cherokees are able to program their own Chip Keys.. He should expect harassment & Admonition from all of the other dealers out there for driving the lucrative "Chip Key Programming" market right into the ground.. JeepForum has thousands and thousands of hits per day. That place & those professionals on there helping the average joe are committing High Treason AGAINST THEIR OWN INDUSTRY!

Back in the beginning of the WWW ("Mosaic" was the Web Browser), my Internet/ISP Company (as in I am the owner) Made a decent profit hosting Web Pages - no one out there had access to even a 56K Dedicated feed, knew nothing about Unix (Linus & Linux were not around yet) and didn't have the slightest clue what was what to even think - Since Myself and my partner who founded the company back before there was even an Internet Were well versed in secret, arcane: Unix, TCP/IP, Networking, Understood that the WWW is not "The Internet", etc.. We were able to simply slap together a few lines of apache code, get some companies text based Website online, and sit back and charge a hefty monthly fee simply hosting a website that took us maybe an hour got get up and running. As the internet & Web started exponentially expanding and the Secret Knowledge, $4.99/mo Web Hosting & High Speed Data feeds became commonplace, me and my company adapted: We got out of the hosting business all together and moved directly into consulting & Troubleshooting - Essentially Selling our Superior knowledge & years of experience to those companies who ran us out of the hosting business. We make tenfold more income doing what we do now, cherry pick what jobs we want to do, etc... my partner in the business spends 3 weeks out of each month working out of his Beach Condo in Mexico - We have many Fairly large (NBC, DeVry to name a few) companies that Sub out portions or their entire IT support to my little S corp.

The point of my story is: THAT IS PROGRESS! - And thats how the world works - the Sign Business is not somehow Immune. And I'm sorry- but those of you who are ranting about how some Internet BBS/Forum is Letting out all of your secrets and ruining your business are in complete denial of reality.

I recall reading the almost Rabid Doglike attack here on 101 against the Fellers (sp?) guy because he made the secret prices he charges the "Sign insiders" visible to the public! to the ruin of you all. I have a NewsFlash for you: If some "Non Insider" has enough knowledge of the whole process to search around for pricing on say: "Scrim Banner" - Fellers doesn't even show up on a google or bing search of "Scrim Banner Best Price" - Literally 100's of pages will come up from Amazon to FocalPrice in china (clicking through 10 pages still does not show fellers) - It is utterly Ridiculous to contend that Fellers making his secret prices visible on his website was going to cause your customers to stomp in to your respective shops and start demanding price cuts on your work.

Anyhow, Best of luck and continued success in your "Keep everything secret" business models.

-t

 

[rjssigns]

Following this Logic, I'm fairly certain that there should be no discussion on say repair & maintenance of printers, plotters & such - Since those engaging is such discussion are cutting the throats and stealing business from say a Roland Certified Tech. Its certainly not fair at all to him/her to have someone come along and ask and be told how to access the "Secret" service mode, and perform ones own diagnostics.. The moderators need to cut access to those forums and make sure they are not indexed by the search engines & such.

In Fact, right after this post - I'm going directly over to jeepforum.com where I asked, and was told (By A practicing chrysler Mechanic) how to use my own Grand Cherokee jeep to program a new remote fob & a transponder key - Cutting Him Directly out of the $90.00 his shop would charge using the $8000.00 BCM/SCIM Programmer they have. I am going to let him know that Stupid is, as Stupid does - and he had absolutely no right to let out the Secret that Grand Cherokees are able to program their own Chip Keys.. He should expect harassment & Admonition from all of the other dealers out there for driving the lucrative "Chip Key Programming" market right into the ground.. JeepForum has thousands and thousands of hits per day. That place & those professionals on there helping the average joe are committing High Treason AGAINST THEIR OWN INDUSTRY!

Back in the beginning of the WWW ("Mosaic" was the Web Browser), my Internet/ISP Company (as in I am the owner) Made a decent profit hosting Web Pages - no one out there had access to even a 56K Dedicated feed, knew nothing about Unix (Linus & Linux around yet) and didn't have the slightest clue what was what to even think - Since Myself and my partner who founded the company back before there was even an Internet Were well versed in secret, arcane: Unix, TCP/IP, Networking, Understood that the WWW is not "The Internet", etc.. We were able to simply slap together a few lines of apache code, get some companies text based Website online, and sit back and charge a hefty monthly fee simply hosting a website that took us maybe an hour got get up and running. As the internet & Web started exponentially expanding and the Secret Knowledge, $4.99/mo Web Hosting & High Speed Data feeds became commonplace, me and my company adapted: We got out of the hosting business all together and moved directly into consulting & Troubleshooting - Essentially Selling our Superior knowledge & years of experience to those companies who ran us out of the hosting business. We make tenfold more income doing what we do now, cherry pick what jobs we want to do, etc... my partner in the business spends 3 weeks out of each month working out of his Beach Condo in Mexico - We have many Fairly large (NBC, DeVry to name a few) companies that Sub out portions or their entire IT support to my little S corp.

The point of my story is: THAT IS PROGRESS! - And thats how the world works - the Sign Business is not somehow Immune. And I'm sorry- but those of you who are ranting about how some Internet BBS/Forum is Letting out all of your secrets and ruining your business are in complete denial of reality.

I recall reading the almost Rabid Doglike attack here on 101 against the Fellers (sp?) guy because he made the secret prices he charges the "Sign insiders" visible to the public! to the ruin of you all. I have a NewsFlash for you: If some "Non Insider" has enough knowledge of the whole process to search around for pricing on say: "Scrim Banner" - Fellers doesn't even show up on a google or bing search of "Scrim Banner Best Price" - Literally 100's of pages will come up from Amazon to FocalPrice in china (clicking through 10 pages still does not show fellers) - It is utterly Ridiculous to contend that Fellers making his secret prices visible on his website was going to cause your customers to stomp in to your respective shops and start demanding price cuts on your work.

Anyhow, Best of luck and continued success in your "Keep everything secret" business models.

-t

You understand the point I was trying to make. Things have changed and will continually evolve. Wife and I subscribe to the multiple streams of income mindset. It's why I weld for hire.

 

[Biker Scout]

Knowledge is Power. You can't grow until you know what you don't know.

It's kind of amazing to find so many people supposedly in the biz, and they have no idea they can do better, or get better. Whatever that may be. Designing, materials sources etc... they are so stuck in the way they are doing things they fail to look up from behind their rubylith and punchcards to see the world has changed.

 

[lodcomm]

You understand the point I was trying to make. Things have changed and will continually evolve. Wife and I subscribe to the multiple streams of income mindset. It's why I weld for hire.

Yes RJS - I was simply Hijacking and further expanding upon the clear irony in points you were outlining.. I also have a few businesses (I have a fairly decent Machine & Metal Fabrication shop I run out of my garage.) As well as my full time Career as a Captain for USAirways (Soon to be American Airines) The large format printing & decal thing is basically a hobby - and as I clearly outlined in my original post(s) - I have no intention of trying to "Gouge" printing jobs away from the pro sign guys around here, the banners and such I am currently doing are to help out a Professional Sign Guy who's printer is down, and he is awaiting parts.

You are dead on about ALL things changing and evolving and one must at least try to keep up!

-t