Gold leaf flaking issues

[Dlee]

Hi everyone...new here as of today and I was hoping I could get some help/answers to my little problem. So I laid some gold down on some truck doors. I used 1shot 4008 fast size and 22k single layer gold. I then brushed on some 1shot 4003 sign sealer. This is how i have always done it, this is how my dad did it, and quite frankly, its the ONLY way I have ever seen it done. The job looked great when finished, but about 6 months down the road, my customer called me and said the gold was flaking off of the truck. Here is where I should mention that this was the SECOND time this happened on the same 2 vehicles. The first time it happened, 1 shot actually reimbursed me because they had sent out a bad batch of the size. But now its happened again and i have no idea why. All temps were correct as was the S.O.P.
When i ran my hands across the door, the gold just came off like dust. Only the gold though. The hand lettered outline and size is still there. Anyone have any idea as to why this has happened?

 

[Dlee]

Its actually a construction company...all their other trucks are just 1 shot...these were to be their working "show" pieces. I made it very clear to them how to take care of the trucks. They say they wash them by hand and use no high pressure stuff. These two particular trucks are only driven by the same 2 guys...one is a roll-off, the other an oil tanker, both guys have "earned" these trucks and they take care of them themselves

. No one else drives them.

 

[Johnny Best]

You might have not gotten the gold leaf in the window of the size drying. you might have been on the other side of the size drying. Never used One Shot but the window of getting the gold on is only around an hour or so. And in Florida it sets up faster because of the heat. I have always used LeFranc. Also put a patch of the size off to the side and use my knuckle to test tackiness. Good luck, I know what it is like to do a job twice, not fun.

 

[Dlee]

Nope. As long as Ive been doing this, this has NEVER happened, let alone twice on the same job. Honestly man...Ive already thought of all of those types of possibilities. Everything was done correctly. I was hoping to maybe hear from some "gold guru" who had some sort of extraterrestrial knowledge or somethin...appreciate the input. Thanks.
And to be clear...not tryin to sound like a smart a** or ungrateful...just sayin in my experience, if you miss the window, you usually know it right then and there.

 

[Gino]

I kinda agree with Johnny. Is the gold coming off both sides equally ?? I rarely use fast size, just don't trust it. I use Hastings and Rolco more as a clearcoat, uness I have a small non-important gilding job, needed in a hurry.

 

[Johnny Best]

If gold does not adhere then your size was wrong on the timing, you do not need a guru, and I am the same as Gino, use slow size next time.
Maybe Robert can help you.

 

[Dlee]

You might have not gotten the gold leaf in the window of the size drying. you might have been on the other side of the size drying. Never used One Shot but the window of getting the gold on is only around an hour or so. And in Florida it sets up faster because of the heat. I have always used LeFranc. Also put a patch of the size off to the side and use my knuckle to test tackiness. Good luck, I know what it is like to do a job twice, not fun.

You might have not gotten the gold leaf in the window of the size drying. you might have been on the other side of the size drying. Never used One Shot but the window of getting the gold on is only around an hour or so. And in Florida it sets up faster because of the heat. I have always used LeFranc. Also put a patch of the size off to the side and use my knuckle to test tackiness. Good luck, I know what it is like to do a job twice, not fun.[/QUOTE

I kinda agree with Johnny. Is the gold coming off both sides equally ?? I rarely use fast size, just don't trust it. I use Hastings and Rolco more as a clearcoat, uness I have a small non-important gilding job, needed in a hurry.

Again...gotta be clear here...This has never happened before. I have ruled out the size. Im not looking for guesses or "maybes" and PLEASE dont take this response as attitude or "I know it all"...obviously if I thought I did I wouldnt be here...im just sayin that if this has happened to anyone before and they can give me definitive response on how to correct the situation...i have neither the time or money to experiment on a gold leaf job. Im familiar how forums work, but in this circumstance I really do need a definitive solution to my problem. I know its tough to determine without going through all the variables and seeing which produces the best results...but again, i was hoping that someone actually had this happen to them before and would have an absolute solution. Again...PLEASE dont take this response as me being ungrateful or having an attitude...thank you all for your input...it really is appreciated.

 

[Dlee]

If gold does not adhere then your size was wrong on the timing, you do not need a guru, and I am the same as Gino, use slow size next time.
Maybe Robert can help you.

that is where my problem lies...the size was ready...passed the "squeaky knuckle test", it turned beautifully. It took the clear coat perfectly, and as I said before, I have never had a problem w fast size in the past. So my question is, what is the difference between fast and slow dry size? If its ready, its ready...

 

[Dlee]

So can anyone help me to understand the difference (pros and cons) between slow and fast size,(aside from the obvious), and why fast size may be considered superior? Like with anything else, there are advocates for both. Like I said before...if its ready, its ready, regardless of the type of product it is...seems that 1shot would discontinue a product if it constantly fails.

 

[Gino]

Personally, I don't consider the fast size to be superior, not at all.

Since you insist it has nothing to do with your size, it might not, but with the amount of area you need to cover, answer me this. Did you put all your sizing on, wait and then go to town or do an area at a time and address each area in a different window ?? Did you make a mask and brush it on or did you do it off the brush ??

What are the outlines around each and every letter in contractor from ??

 

[Gino]

Personally, I don't consider the fast size to be superior, not at all.

Since you insist it has nothing to do with your size, it might not, but with the amount of area you need to cover, answer me this. Did you put all your sizing on, wait and then go to town or do an area at a time and address each area in a different window ?? Did you make a mask and brush it on or did you do it off the brush ??

What are the outlines around each and every letter in contractor from ??

 

[Billct2]

I prefer slow size, besides the extended window I was always led to believe it was the superior product That being said, I do use fast size on some jobs, like trucks or boats.
I haven't seen this exact problem before, it does look like the size was too dry, but If it was the size that was the issue I think it would have shown up when you turned it. So I think the problem lies with the clear coat reacting with size or just the clear itself. I don't trust 1 Shot anymore and they may have changed either the composition of the sealer or, like the size, it was a bad batch. You may want to try this forum, lot of gold leaf experience there https://www.handletteringforum.com/forum/index.php

 

[Dlee]

ok...let me back up a bit here.

Personally, I don't consider the fast size to be superior, not at all.

Since you insist it has nothing to do with your size, it might not, but with the amount of area you need to cover, answer me this. Did you put all your sizing on, wait and then go to town or do an area at a time and address each area in a different window ?? Did you make a mask and brush it on or did you do it off the brush ??

What are the outlines around each and every letter in contractor from ??

Let me back up a little here first. I am a pro sign painter of 35 years. Ive done many gold leaf jobs. I know how to do it and I am familiar w most of the products and procedures, as far as surface gold goes, ie; trucks, race cars etc...(and I actually meant to say the slow size seemed to be superior in the responses I was getting.) As far as laying down the size, i have the foresight to only lay down what I can gild within the correct window.The layout was their design, I just reproduced it. For this design, I used a stencil that I made on my plotter. Laid the size as smooth and uniform as possible w as few brush strokes as possible. Very consistent, no puddles or dry spots. I then peeled the mask while the size was wet. I then let the size set up. I used a test patch. The test patch was perfect when I ran my knuckle across it. I then knuckled the first section of size on the actual design and it was all good to go. I laid the gold. Patent/transfer, 22k double gold. Burnished it down w my finger through the paper. I then hand spun it with a piece of velvet, then used 1shot 4003 sign clear over the gold. The next day i came back and outlined and lettered the word "contractors". I ran a piece of 1/4" tape on the top and bottom lines of the word "contractors", prior to lettering it, and upon finishing the lettering and pulling up the tape, the gold didnt budge. I then brushed on the 4003 clear and called it a day.
I know this is the right way to do it. The point of my inquiry was to see if this had happened to anyone before and if they knew how to remedy it. I have already gone through the process of elimination. PPG has no answer. 3 other gold leaf supply entities I have contacted have no answer.
I have done gold and silver leaf on some of my custom bike and hot rod paint jobs as well with zero issues. And thats shooting base coat, graphics, Kandi and intercoat over the leaf, then using PPG 20201 clear.
This is something I have never run across before. And btw...this was the second time doing this job because 1shot put out some bad size, so they reimbursed me to re-do it as well as give me some new size and it still happened a second time. I am completely perplexed.

 

[Gino]

I kinda think anyone answering this has one or two of these under their belt. Personally, I got into gilding maybe 10 years after I was already hand lettering. I'm now at it 49 years professionally, but ya can add about 5 or 5 years to that cause I was doing it throughout high school before going to college. As for gilding, I have 1", 2" and 3" rolls, leaf and use all the many styles. We've even used beer for size in a church many years ago. We ran outta real size, so we used that. That was probably almost 40 years ago. The guy working with me, it was his idea. As far as I know, that altar and stuff we did is still from what we used way back then. However, I'm not good at all on glass, so I don't offer it. I see the really nice stuff others can do and it makes me sick.

dlee, the way I see it is....... this has never happened to me and I've gilded quite a few things. So, all I can give you is guesses, assumptions or answers based on deductions.

We have the facts as....... you started with a crystal clean truck. I take it you scrub it re-e-eal clean before starting anything. No contaminants and sh!t. So, somewhere between you putting your patterns down, size, gold, hand turning, clears and taking a picture of it it and 6 months down the road, it fails completely and horribly.

I don't have a final answer, but I can say, you're the one who was paid to do it, so ya better find out what it is......... or start possibly re-thinking your process(es). Ya know, the paints and stuff have gotten lots worse. Perhaps look into that angle.

As for me, I hope this doesn't come off as an attitude..... like you've displayed, but all we're trying to do is help ya, so don't bite off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Dlee]

I kinda think anyone answering this has one or two of these under their belt. Personally, I got into gilding maybe 10 years after I was already hand lettering. I'm now at it 49 years professionally, but ya can add about 5 or 5 years to that cause I was doing it throughout high school before going to college. As for gilding, I have 1", 2" and 3" rolls, leaf and use all the many styles. We've even used beer for size in a church many years ago. We ran outta real size, so we used that. That was probably almost 40 years ago. The guy working with me, it was his idea. As far as I know, that altar and stuff we did is still from what we used way back then. However, I'm not good at all on glass, so I don't offer it. I see the really nice stuff others can do and it makes me sick.

dlee, the way I see it is....... this has never happened to me and I've gilded quite a few things. So, all I can give you is guesses, assumptions or answers based on deductions.

We have the facts as....... you started with a crystal clean truck. I take it you scrub it re-e-eal clean before starting anything. No contaminants and sh!t. So, somewhere between you putting your patterns down, size, gold, hand turning, clears and taking a picture of it it and 6 months down the road, it fails completely and horribly.

I don't have a final answer, but I can say, you're the one who was paid to do it, so ya better find out what it is......... or start possibly re-thinking your process(es). Ya know, the paints and stuff have gotten lots worse. Perhaps look into that angle.

As for me, I hope this doesn't come off as an attitude..... like you've displayed, but all we're trying to do is help ya, so don't bite off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Dlee]

[/QUOT
"Like the attitude Ive displayed"...If you thought I displayed an attitude, you shouldnt have responded.

 

[Gino]

Dlee, you came here looking for answers. Many of us have tried to help, but you have all the answers. That's all well & good. However, don't be telling me what I should and shouldn't be saying or doing, just because you're ticked off. Check the ego at the door and let's start over.

 

[Dlee]

dude...you accused me of having an attitude. I told you if you felt that way than you shouldnt' have contacted me. Im neither ticked off, nor do I need to "check my ego". Please do not contact me again. And if you want to get technical, you have now "told me what to do" a number of times now, ie: "I better figure out what the problem is, dont cut off my nose, check my ego", and I have not told you what to do once. So im going to finalize this contact here and now. Please, PLEASE do NOT contact me again.

 

[Gino]

Aawww........... don't be so mean. Like I said, it's an open forum, you came looking for help and decided you didn't like what anyone had to say. Now, you wanna dictate who can say or do what YOU want. Things, including life, just don't work that way.

Welcome to the village.

 

[Dlee]

I prefer slow size, besides the extended window I was always led to believe it was the superior product That being said, I do use fast size on some jobs, like trucks or boats.
I haven't seen this exact problem before, it does look like the size was too dry, but If it was the size that was the issue I think it would have shown up when you turned it. So I think the problem lies with the clear coat reacting with size or just the clear itself. I don't trust 1 Shot anymore and they may have changed either the composition of the sealer or, like the size, it was a bad batch. You may want to try this forum, lot of gold leaf experience there https://www.handletteringforum.com/forum/index.php

I have never used slow size. I will check it out...thanks