How do you charge for Permit Processing

[Inkit]

Hello everyone. We started offering illuminated outdoor signage a few months back. We were primarily Wide format printing and wraps, but our clients want a one stop shop for all their signage. We've made a set fee for the permit processing, but have had a few customers with specific demands that are taking much longer than usual. Example: Maximum allowable size in our town is 60 sq. ft. One client is asking that the sign be made larger. I understand that this request will require meeting with the board to for a variance, but I don't know what the fee for that should be. What do you do if it does not get approved? Do you charge for multiple designs as well?

This was just an example but any info and advice about permit processing in general would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

 

[rjssigns]

We charge for the permit and the time it takes us to secure it. No fixed rates because you never know what will happen.

I'm curious/concerned with the next permit I have to pull. The village where the sign is going is notoriously picky. Client was informed of this going in.

 

[J Hill Designs]

We charge for the permit and the time it takes us to secure it. No fixed rates because you never know what will happen.

I'm curious/concerned with the next permit I have to pull. The village where the sign is going is notoriously picky. Client was informed of this going in.

$250 minimum acquisition, hourly if over, plus fees at cost

 

[TXFB.INS]

We charge for the permit and the time it takes us to secure it. No fixed rates because you never know what will happen.

This, as you will need to "usually" go to the location and do an inspection, feel out the forms, file, etc...

TIME = MONEY

 

[rjssigns]

To answer the OP's question regarding multiple designs. We charge for them all. I'll go racing before I do spec work.

 

[Jean Shimp]

I do a good amount of permitting for 3 counties and they all have different "rules" for their application process. It's important that you have a full understanding of what you are getting into - which I know can be hard to do when dealing with the local government. If someone want a "sign waiver" it usually costs over $2000 and that does not guarantee they will get the waiver. The city charges $200 just to fill out the application form. There are also other fees. Then there are two presentations to be made to plead your case. You have to go before the city council. A full set of scaled plans must be submitted showing why you should be allowed a variance, yada, yada. The whole process is very time consuming. That being said I have no idea what your county requires. The bottom line is charge for all your time and municipal fees.

 

[Inkit]

Great info everyone. thanks.

1) The issue that I experience is that I have to do some sort of initial design, so they see what the Sign will look like. During this stage, they make changes, which in some cases are not possible. This is where designing becomes an issue. i can understand the initial layout (which I need anyway for quoting purposes), but the ones after is where I'm struggling with how to approach it. Btw, the design that I'm referring to is only for these types of signs. If someone wants a banner or a wrap, that's billed hourly or a flat fee.

2) I completely understand that "time is money". We're in business, not favors. I guess the best way to approach it is to have them agree that anything beyond the township's requirements would be billed hourly.

3) I don't know what the township's exact fees are until I pickup the permit, so I state in my quotes that it's added in at the end. Anyone else do that too?

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[J Hill Designs]

3) I don't know what the township's exact fees are until I pickup the permit, so I state in my quotes that it's added in at the end. Anyone else do that too?

Thanks again for all the help!

yep - "plus city fees, billed at cost"

 

[signbrad]

We obtain permits from over a dozen municipalities in the Kansas
City area. So we pull lots of permits on a regular basis. Each town is a little different. Kansas City, Missouri, has an exceptionally streamlined permit process. They have half a dozen people processing permits all day long, and they do it while you wait. If our applications and drawings are in order, I've been able to pull as many as three or four permits and be in and out in an hour. The fee is standard and doesn't change. The other towns in the metro take a few days to a week or more to approve a sign permit, but some of them allow you to apply and pay online, which is very convenient. One suburb stubbornly insists on approving sign permits only at city council meetings. Consequently, it can take weeks to get a sign permit in this town.
We charge a standard fee, usually under 100 dollars, plus the cost of the permit.

If a situation requires appearing before a planning committee or board, we decline. We have tried to do this before. For example, we have applied for variances for clients in the past, but too much time was wasted, with no guarantee of success. We now push that legwork back onto the client.

Sketch Time

Regarding sketches and design work, I believe the industry has been hurt by the willingness of so many of us to do drawings for free. Customers often take advantage of this and request multiple revisions. After we've already invested some time in a design without receiving any upfront money, the client has some leverage. So we sometimes continue to produce "one more" revision, hoping it's the last. My boss has had me do as many as ten tweaks before we actually got the go ahead on a job, and the time is never really recovered.

The solution to this is simple: charge a deposit before sketches are produced. You can call it a "sketch deposit" and tell the client it will be applied to the cost of the job. Once money has changed hands, the advantage shifts to you.

If a shop owner feels that free sketch work is really necessary, some restrictions can be put on sketch time.
My ex-girlfriend is in the marketing business and subcontracts graphic artists all the time. She tells her clients that the charges for their design work include the cost of one major revision and two or three tweaks. After that, additional design time is added at 110 dollars an hour. It is surprising how many customers stop wasting your design time with endless changes once they reach their limit.

If you don't regularly track design time on every job, it should be spot checked on a regular basis. Design time can add up quickly and turn smaller jobs into losers even before you begin.

Somebody ALWAYS pays for design time. Or for time spent on permits. It's better if it's your client.

Brad in Kansas City

 

[ams]

If it's local I charge $75 - $100 + zoning/building fees. Out of town I charge $125 - $150 because of gas to drop off the permit.

 

[Drip Dry]

Thanks Brad... some very good ideas and comments

 

[Jwalk]

I do designs to much without paying and want to start charging. I had a idea of if I do the design and you dont go with me then you have to pay for the design and have a fixed rate before hand. Im not justifying this but not charging is because we hope to get the job obviously. Im getting to the point of building in a design cost at first and walk if they don't want it.

I would love to get into getting permits but have a long learning curve to go.

 

[Inkit]

Brad, I wish our local towns ran that way! that process seems so streamlined! As for the variances, I think I'm going to do the same as you. If it requires a variance, I'll have the client take care of it, at least for now.

As for the design, we charge ahead of time for everything we do except for these products. I have tried to request a deposit for the art from clients in the past and they don't know why they have to pay for a layout of a sign which is needed for quoting purposes. It's also harder in our area, because no one else charges for the design. Honestly, I can kind of understand that. I have a few friends that are builders and they said that they go though the same thing. They'll receive a request to bid on a project, which could take about 2 days to quote, than loose the bid.

 

[Inkit]

They say it's part of the job and you try to make up for it on the next one. What's your opinion on this? I'm curious if this occurs in our area only.

 

[Jean Shimp]

They say it's part of the job and you try to make up for it on the next one. What's your opinion on this? I'm curious if this occurs in our area only.

We've been told our company is "hard to work with" because we don't do designs for free. That's fine because the less time I spend chasing after non-paying work, the more I can concentrate on growing a profitable business.

 

[Gino]

Because all of the various municipalities charge differently in our area, we simply have a line item in our quoting software which simply states.... "Quote Does Not Include Obtaining Permits or Permitting". There is no way we know what each and every permit is going to cost. If you wanna know, once you accept our terms and give us a deposit and written authorization, we will do one of two things.

1. Give you all the scaled drawings with as much information you need to obtain one or....
2. You can have us do it at an hourly rate.

In my years, I have attended a few variance meetings and they are a gross waste of time. You'll almost always get it, they let you know ahead of time if it will fly or not, but ya never know..... some little p!ssant could show up to argue the variance and then your customer is stuck paying you for something they verbally told you you could do. Oh well.

I have one right now who in his e-mail says, I don't want to lift a finger to do any part of this. Just figure it all out, give me the quote and then the sign when we're done. I'm charging $680.00 for Obtaining Said Permit.

 

[Inkit]

We've been told our company is "hard to work with" because we don't do designs for free. That's fine because the less time I spend chasing after non-paying work, the more I can concentrate on growing a profitable business.

Good Point. Fortunately, the majority of illuminated outdoor projects we've done have been approved, so they were not a waste of time. It's the few very demanding clients that makes me re-think the structure.

 

[Inkit]

Great info Gino. Thank you.

 

[signbrad]

They say it's part of the job and you try to make up for it on the next one. What's your opinion on this? I'm curious if this occurs in our area only.

I agree that there is no easy answer to this problem. And the problem seems to be everywhere.
In the old days, we wouldn't even think of doing a color rendering for a 4x8 real estate sign. A nice drawing was for nice jobs only. Everybody else got a quickie pencil thumbnail sketch while they waited, if even that. But computers have changed everything. They have allowed us to do many things quickly and easily, but they have also allowed many people to enter the sign business with little ability, and sometimes even less business acumen.

It seems that free design work is here to stay. But is it practical to "try to make up for it on the next one?" Is anyone really able to do this?
Is there a better way?

If we are self-employed, we already spend time doing things that do not really generate income. Calling in orders, picking up supplies, surveying jobs, working on payroll if you have employees—nonproductive tasks. When I worked for myself many years ago, I figured out that I averaged around 25 hours a week actually making signs. Yet I sometimes worked 60-hour weeks. So my 25 hours had to generate the money to pay for my 60, as well as pay the overhead, each week, plus a little profit.

I think it would be practical to track free design time for a week or a month to get an idea of how much time it involves on average, and then add it to all the other nonproductive hours. This way, free design time could be rolled into the shop rate, so that it gets carried by all the paying customers, just like the overhead.

Think about this—when a furniture company offers "free" delivery, are they really doing it for free? The delivery truck costs the store owner money and he or she pays the driver and his helper. These expenses become part of the store's overhead and are buried in the cost of the merchandise, are they not? Free delivery is not really free.

Also, how would you react if you were interviewing for a job and were told that you would be required to work a certain number of hours each week with no pay? Would you take the job?

If we are going to take the risk of being in business and, in addition, work long hours, we should be compensated. Otherwise it would be better to work for someone else and at the end of a more normal work day, clock out, go home and eat a normal supper at a decent hour, and then sit on the porch.

 

[Inkit]

Signbrad, I see your point of view, but take quoting a customer as an example: If someone comes in to to our office and one of us gives them a price on a wrap. After a half hour of discussing the vehicle type, coverage, perf options, wrap material and warranty, the customer goes somewhere else. That 1/2 hour isn't billable, but you keep in mind that it's part of the job and you win some & lose some. That is somewhat calculated into the shop's overhead. The illuminated signage needs graphics to quote the customer. If I don't do the layout, I can't determine the final price. Do any of you guys have a generic guide that you go by, so that you don't have to really do a layout to give the customer a quick quote?

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that graphics (for illuminated signage) should be free, I'm just stating a different point of view. This is a very interesting subject by the way! Good stuff everyone.