Do you use a form of some kind in which the customer gives you written permission to install a sign and releases you from liability for future problems? I can envision all kinds of potential problems without such a form...Like the customer's landlord finds out you drilled holes in his wall and the customer insists you didn't ask permission to do it. Or somebody tries to pull off an old sign and breaks chunks off the wall...Or a sign falls off and bounces off a car (or worse yet, hits someone) etc. etc.
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How do you deal with potential legal issues?
- Thread starter Ripcord
- Start date
OldPaint
New Member
and this why......most WHO DO INSTALLS ARE LICENSED AND BONDED!!!!!
i never was and most of the installs, i ever did was.......WITH ME HELPING..... the owner install HIS SIGN!!!
this way it was he.........who bore the responsibility of any repercussions from any failure.
or i just did the sign handed it to them.......my responsibility ended there.
i never was and most of the installs, i ever did was.......WITH ME HELPING..... the owner install HIS SIGN!!!
this way it was he.........who bore the responsibility of any repercussions from any failure.
or i just did the sign handed it to them.......my responsibility ended there.
BIG EASY DOES IT
New Member
I would assume that's why most carry contractors license and such. And also have high insurance coverages.
rjssigns
Active Member
Due diligence, insurance, permits and plans.
If it is not an owner occupied building we get signed, dated permission from the owner. Then move forward with all the other stuff.
Once you pull that permit you "own" that job until such time it is removed or redone by someone else.
Sometimes you get the feeling the paperwork is the biggest part of the job.
If it is not an owner occupied building we get signed, dated permission from the owner. Then move forward with all the other stuff.
Once you pull that permit you "own" that job until such time it is removed or redone by someone else.
Sometimes you get the feeling the paperwork is the biggest part of the job.
Worrying about things happening down the road isn't being too paranoid. With all the lawyers running around these day looking to sue for any and everything... Try working in a mall or hi-rise commercial building. THOSE folks are really paranoid about lawsuits.
First, get a LL authorization letter giving you permission to install the sign. That avoids the issue of the LL complaining later on that you "drilled holes in her building". Plus for most sign permits (you did pull a permit, right?) you need the LL approval anyway. If the customer owns the building then get the customer to to give you that approval as part of the contract/ work order.
As far as the sign falling down later, that's all on you and your insurance coverage. IIRC it's called "completed projects" coverage but you insurance agent will know best. I speak "sign language", not "insurance language" so forgive me if I have the wrong term.
And the best way to avoid problems later on is to just install it correctly the first time. For example, don't hang a 4x8 sheet of MDO with drywall screws on an exterior wall. If you aren't 100% sure how to do it either find out how or pay someone to do it for you. And yes, you can always just have the customer install the sign, but that leaves $ on the table.
First, get a LL authorization letter giving you permission to install the sign. That avoids the issue of the LL complaining later on that you "drilled holes in her building". Plus for most sign permits (you did pull a permit, right?) you need the LL approval anyway. If the customer owns the building then get the customer to to give you that approval as part of the contract/ work order.
As far as the sign falling down later, that's all on you and your insurance coverage. IIRC it's called "completed projects" coverage but you insurance agent will know best. I speak "sign language", not "insurance language" so forgive me if I have the wrong term.
And the best way to avoid problems later on is to just install it correctly the first time. For example, don't hang a 4x8 sheet of MDO with drywall screws on an exterior wall. If you aren't 100% sure how to do it either find out how or pay someone to do it for you. And yes, you can always just have the customer install the sign, but that leaves $ on the table.
signage
New Member
If you are worried about this then you should not be installing signs! If the sign is installed correctly it will not fall off! Sounds like someone wanting to get into this business that doesn't have the proper knowledge.
reQ
New Member
Have to have insurance anyways. Does not matter if you know what you are doing or you don't. Just part of being in business.
signage
New Member
Insurance doesn't protect about you not knowing what you are doing, it only protects you if something goes wrong and you did everything correctly. Insurance company's are in business to make money and have attorney on their pay roll/retainer. If they see you didn't know what you are doing they may refuse to pay and make you responsible! If you are lucky they will pay and then drop you!
reQ
New Member
So, whats your point? Do not have insurance?
reQ
New Member
You made this judgement based on...?
I am sorry, we have to have insurance, since big companies like walmart etc. won't even deal with you if you don't have 5-10 mil insurance.
And if your business does not have one, and you hoping all the time that nothing is going to happen - one day it will hit you like a bus and you will be very sorry that you did not have insurance.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
i think you are misunderstanding, no one is saying you don't need insurance, but having insurance does not make up for a lack of knowledge. If you install a sign that you are not qualified to install or the install is not deemed to be reasonably done and the sign falls down and hurts/kills someone, your insurance company will refuse to cover you because you were negligent by taking on a job you shouldn't.
To answer the original question, no piece of paper is going to get you out of trouble if you are negligent and install a sign incorrectly. as for your other scenarios such as someone else pulling a sign down and taking off part of the wall with it, there is no way that will come back on you.
At the end of the day, you need to be insured for the type of work you do, as well as being certified/know what you are doing (depending on the area you do business in, some may require a contractors license)
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Regardless if you put something up correctly or do something wrong or miss a small detail. Accidents happen. Insurance is a necessary evil. However, as for the OP's question..... all signs are made and installed with the mindset, they are being done in a manner conforming with the standards of many codes from licenses, to building, to electrical, to construction. If negligence can be proved, then you run a chance, your insurance company will not represent you. When something goes wrong in today's world, it seems all the lower class lawyers jump on board with their 99 finger pointing technique, where anyone from the guy making the extrusions, to the painter, to the people building the sign, to the codes department, to the inspectors, to the landlord's approval or not. Everyone gets blamed. If you throw enough sh!t at it.... something's gottta stick somewhere. That's their MO.
Yes, we have some paperwork needing to be signed according to what type of sign it is, where it's going and whatnot. However, putting disclaimers and waivers in it doesn't do you any good should something eventually go wrong. Now, I said eventually. There is a time table that will take place. Nothing is expected to last forever, but whether you are working on an electric sign or a hanging sign, a pylon or whatever, if you see problems, they should be reported immediately and either the end-user pays you to fix them or gets someone else to fix them. If you just go on doing your work and ignore fixing a problem, then it will become your responsibility, since you were in there and did nothing about it. Should something go wrong and you say you didn't see it or notice it, you are admitting you don't know your line of work, therefore should not have been doing it in the first place and could be found 100% guilty of negligence and fraud.
There is a common train of thought of how business gets done in every line of work from estimating to the actual work to finishing it up. Stay within those guidelines and you should be fine. Start dancing around, doing things you aren't capable of, but doing anyway, be ready for the wrath of the system.
Yes, we have some paperwork needing to be signed according to what type of sign it is, where it's going and whatnot. However, putting disclaimers and waivers in it doesn't do you any good should something eventually go wrong. Now, I said eventually. There is a time table that will take place. Nothing is expected to last forever, but whether you are working on an electric sign or a hanging sign, a pylon or whatever, if you see problems, they should be reported immediately and either the end-user pays you to fix them or gets someone else to fix them. If you just go on doing your work and ignore fixing a problem, then it will become your responsibility, since you were in there and did nothing about it. Should something go wrong and you say you didn't see it or notice it, you are admitting you don't know your line of work, therefore should not have been doing it in the first place and could be found 100% guilty of negligence and fraud.
There is a common train of thought of how business gets done in every line of work from estimating to the actual work to finishing it up. Stay within those guidelines and you should be fine. Start dancing around, doing things you aren't capable of, but doing anyway, be ready for the wrath of the system.
If you really want a good answer on this... ask a lawyer..... and see how much he wants to charge you to make some run-on sentences in your quotes and invoices will cost ya.......
Thanks for the replies and advice. I think if you read my original post it should be obvious that I don't intend to attempt an installation that I don't know how to do properly. That's why I posted this question (in the newbie forum.) I'm just branching into the sign business (I've been screen printing for 12 years) and I want to learn as much as I can about it so that I can take on more and more different kinds of jobs. So far I've done window signs, yard signs, one backlighted sign that fit into an existing frame, and a large wall mount sign which the owner installed himself.
Are there sign installers who will install signs that someone else manufactured? If I could partner with someone and let him do the installs as an independent contractor, that might be a good way to go about it at first. I also like the idea of telling the customer that he would need to handle the installation, but that I'd be happy to give him a hand with it. As mentioned above, that way he did it and I just helped.
Are there sign installers who will install signs that someone else manufactured? If I could partner with someone and let him do the installs as an independent contractor, that might be a good way to go about it at first. I also like the idea of telling the customer that he would need to handle the installation, but that I'd be happy to give him a hand with it. As mentioned above, that way he did it and I just helped.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
If you hire a sub to do your work, go along and ask if he minds you watching and asking questions. Technically, you can't help, as his insurance would not cover you, but you can ask questions. As for helping a customer with the instal..... again, that's really a bad way to do it. Someone has to obtain the permit and if you don't, then the end-user must. Again, he can't have you as a liability. It's against all laws and codes. If you did, and something went wrong, you're both gonna be blamed, more-so you, as you would be considered the professional, but to get out of something, the lawyers will pin everything on you. You can't be using each others tools, ladders or anything or it's not considered a cut-n-dry scenario. Someone needs to be held responsible and pull the permits.
It's the same idea as you can't have someone working in your shop, if he/she is not on the payroll. It's against the lay after the first $600 is earned. After that, they are employees. Same with your instals. Someone has to be named as.... 'in charge'.... which stands for responsible.
It's the same idea as you can't have someone working in your shop, if he/she is not on the payroll. It's against the lay after the first $600 is earned. After that, they are employees. Same with your instals. Someone has to be named as.... 'in charge'.... which stands for responsible.