HP R1000 prints scratches very easily....Need Help

[Brandon708]

Hi everyone,

I bought this R1000 printer almost 3 years ago now. It has been great but I have been noticing that the prints have been scratching very easily. What I mostly notice it on is the real estate signs I print. I use Maxmetal Digital Print ACM. I almost always do double sided prints (real estate signs). I am very careful with prints and try not to drag and handle them with care. I take them off the printer and bring them to the production table to trim and find that there are a bunch of scratches and wonder how the heck it happened. The ink just scratches way to easily. I even tried to clean the panel with Denatured Alcohol before the loading, but it doesn't help with the scratches. Just feel like I am wasting time doing it.
I realize it may be because there is some type of sharp object on the production table giving it scratches and I often clean or blow off the table before putting signs on it. But I am also having my installers say that dark color inks such as black being the worst. He says that if he has two sign panels that are wet back-to-back the entire print gets ruined from the water. With a printer of this price, I wouldn't expect such a failure. I would really hate to have to laminate every panel to avoid this. Even if I did there could be scratches before I laminate the signs.
What am I doing wrong?
I modified the profiles with different variations but still no luck. Anyone have a good profile or suggestions?


Brandon

 

[Brandon708]

I am also getting scratches when I print the second side from the belt.
With ACM I have noticed that I have to let the substrate cool down to reload unless the print doesn't print correctly due to the ink drying to quickly in the print zone.

 

[balstestrat]

I don't think you will ever get completely rid of all the scratches. However I can tell you some things that may or not be helpful.
You should always handle them with care, don't slide the prints on the tables sideways etc. They say it takes 24 hours for the ink to fully cure.
Always try to run your curing at max temp (~195f). However for B-side you should have a 2nd profile with a lower temp like ~175f. Or run your B-sides with a "slider" board under it. Something easy and soft, foamboard etc. you can make holes on it so it will vacuum through.
Is your overcoat at 1.0? That's fine, won't really get much more out of it even if you increase it.

There is a noticeable difference between different brands of ACP. So what I really recommend to you is get some samples and test it. You may very well use one that is not great with latex. Problem is pretty much every ACP is coated for UV ink.
Or ask your HP rep what they recommend. I'm not familiar with this maxmetal.

Lastly I would recommend you to think about the lamination, just get some cheap laminate with strong adhesive and you will get rid of your problem. Even some extra protection.

And oh yeah, I'll just add it to the end. Do not get the prints get wet as long as you plan on handling them. Again this varies between brands but it will make the ink come off easier.

 

[Brandon708]

Hi Balstestrat,

Thank you for your response. I currently am using a 8 pass profile with the temp all the way up at 194 degrees. The overcoat maxed out at 3.

Are there any other suggestions on the other profile levels?

With real estate signs, not handling them while they are wet is impossible if it rains. The installers take the panels down and put them in their truck with all the other signs and they get damaged. My installer even told me he has signs that he hasn't even installed yet and they are completely ruined.

I was hoping there was something I was doing wrong and could be fixed but it my just be the printer or acm.

 

[balstestrat]

Take down that overcoat... it's too much and wont help. Maybe 2.0 for you or even 1.5.
Apparently 12-pass is better for the drying so you could try that. You can also turn up the air pressure as well for drying/curing.

Anyway with what you just said, consider the lamination if you don't want to continue with the ruined prints.

 

[Brandon708]

Okay, I will give 12 pass a shot and up the air pressure. Thanks again!

 

[Brandon708]

12 pass is not scratching as easy as 8 pass. Looks like you may have found the solution. 12 pass is much slower but it will be faster than laminating them all. THANK YOU!

 

[ToTo]

Regarding the „scratches“ on double sided: these are not scratches from the belt. It’s the vacuum sucking partially ink from A-side. Try to reduce the vacuum as much as possible.
Scratches during handling can happen easily, since the ink layer is much thinner compared with UV. Lamination is necessary in this cases.
Wet-resistance on glass and metal is a critical point. Depends on substrate and primer, and your receipt.

 

[dasigndr]

wow! just wow!
I to was looking into getting this R series printer because it will produce excellent prints THAT DON'T SCRATCH as easily as the FB750 printers.
After seeing this post I am completely disappointed!

Why buy an extremely expensive printer, that is supposed to produce prints that do not require lamination only to be told that you need to laminate!! LOL

might as well buy a cheap printer and laminate. You would be way farther ahead. Don't you think?

 

[parrott]

There are much better options available than HP. Look into other manufacturers Canon, Vanguard, Digitech, EFI. All depends on price point and what you need to achieve.

 

[StratoJet]

wow! just wow!
I to was looking into getting this R series printer because it will produce excellent prints THAT DON'T SCRATCH as easily as the FB750 printers.
After seeing this post I am completely disappointed!

Why buy an extremely expensive printer, that is supposed to produce prints that do not require lamination only to be told that you need to laminate!! LOL

might as well buy a cheap printer and laminate. You would be way farther ahead. Don't you think?

StratoJet USA will be at the Graphics Canada show May 11-13th, if you like to come by and see our printers. Of course, there will be a lot of other good printers to see in one place.

Graphics Canada

graphicscanada.com

 

[Brandon708]

UPDATE

After going up to a 12 pass the ink is holding up much better. See attached for the photo that I scratched equally with a wire brush, 8pass vs 12pass. It takes much longer to print but the end product is much better. When I first got this printer, I thought I can print in 3 or 4 pass for real estate signs and pump them out quickly. So, I have went from a 3 pass to 8 pass now to 12 pass. 3 pass to 12 pass takes 4 times longer so that sucks. Other than the scratches it has been a pretty good printer, just doesn't print as fast as I would like. I also wish the overcoat was a true overcoat with a harder thicker protection.
I also learned quickly that you can't print one side of Aluminum and then reload it right away. You have to wait till the sign panel cools down to room temperature to reload it which really slows down small runs. It's almost like you printing 1 double sided real estate sign (2'x3') takes almost the same amount of time as say 6 double sided signs because you have to have that one sign waiting for it to cool down. But when you have say 10 double sided signs the first set is already cool by the time it's time to load it.

I am open to suggestions to another flatbed printer that has a better adhesion and durability.

 

[balstestrat]

UPDATE

After going up to a 12 pass the ink is holding up much better. See attached for the photo that I scratched equally with a wire brush, 8pass vs 12pass. It takes much longer to print but the end product is much better. When I first got this printer, I thought I can print in 3 or 4 pass for real estate signs and pump them out quickly. So, I have went from a 3 pass to 8 pass now to 12 pass. 3 pass to 12 pass takes 4 times longer so that sucks. Other than the scratches it has been a pretty good printer, just doesn't print as fast as I would like. I also wish the overcoat was a true overcoat with a harder thicker protection.
I also learned quickly that you can't print one side of Aluminum and then reload it right away. You have to wait till the sign panel cools down to room temperature to reload it which really slows down small runs. It's almost like you printing 1 double sided real estate sign (2'x3') takes almost the same amount of time as say 6 double sided signs because you have to have that one sign waiting for it to cool down. But when you have say 10 double sided signs the first set is already cool by the time it's time to load it.

I am open to suggestions to another flatbed printer that has a better adhesion and durability.

You could still try 8p with 1.0 or 1.5 OC. I think part of your problem was that excessive OC that won't let the ink dry properly.
I don't even know why they allow to set it at 3. It's just stupid much.

 

[Geneva Olson]

Regarding the „scratches“ on double sided: these are not scratches from the belt. It’s the vacuum sucking partially ink from A-side. Try to reduce the vacuum as much as possible.
Scratches during handling can happen easily, since the ink layer is much thinner compared with UV. Lamination is necessary in this cases.
Wet-resistance on glass and metal is a critical point. Depends on substrate and primer, and your receipt.

a curious question: if you reduce the vacuum do you have to watch for substrate lifting so it doesnt hit the printhead?

 

[Gino]

Is your scratch test a 'wire brush' ??

 

[Brandon708]

Is your scratch test a 'wire brush' ??

For this test yes. I am lightly scraping the surface. Do you know another method for a scratch test? I realize it's a pretty aggressive approach, but you can tell if the ink is coming off easier than it should by brushing over it lightly.

 

[Gino]

Well, if it works go ahead, but I wouldn't use a wire brush. Usually a fingernail will suffice. Heck, I wouldn't put a wire brush to anything painted or printed. Sounds like a disaster on purpose.

May I ask, what trimming are you doing that you need to cart a 1/2 printed panel around the shop ?? Reason being..... the more you handle it while somewhat uncured, the more chance of anything happening to it.

Those scratches look like you have little stones or shrapnel on your tables. I also don't understand how WATER can ruin a sign from just getting wet ??

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this is direct printing to the substrate, correct ?? You're not printing vinyl and laying it on one side at a time ??

When we have delicate signs needing to be flipped over, we Have thick carpeting we lay down and we still make sure we don't slide it around.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

probably because it's latex rather than UV?

 

[Brandon708]

You could still try 8p with 1.0 or 1.5 OC. I think part of your problem was that excessive OC that won't let the ink dry properly.
I don't even know why they allow to set it at 3. It's just stupid much.

Thanks for that info. I will make that adjustment too.

 

[Behrmon]

Lots of good answers, fought this for a while until creating a profile for the 2nd side with lower temp and slightly less vac. Always thought 2nd side was scratching until we realized that what was really happening was that the ink on the belt was heating and pulling ink off of side A, much happier after creating that second side profile!