• I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...

I Built My Own Sign Software Using AI. So Should You.

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
But me personally I really don't like this "this stuff is here to stay, and we should embrace it" attitude. I'm sorry, I don't have any interest in training a fake robot to take my job so I can inadvertently make my life more expensive, and then have no income. Sounds like a really dumb idea to me.
It's going to be here in some form or fashion to stay. Way too much inertia at this point and I don't see that actually changing, the only thing that may calm things down is that it finds an actual place to where it's "useful" and every other usage abates and calms down.

However, having said that, that doesn't put me in the camp of "should embrace it". I find it logically hard to embrace something that doesn't actually produce something for me that is better compared to what I could do from the beginning. I haven't embraced things like live/power trace etc and they have been around far longer and less damaging, but they have been here for decades.
 

EddieBS

New Member
The thing that would offset that is typically when a market has fewer players in it, prices tend to go upwards, not downwards. Even if there is major breakthroughs in surrounding areas to offset costs, it tends to be negligible to what the end user sees, if at all. Not all savings that a vendor has is necessarily passed on to the customer. Especially if the field of vendors isn't that big.
True that, but market will decide, if it will be too expensive the end user will not buy it.

Both are a double edge sword. Some people try to shoehorn one/both into areas that doesn't really benefit. Automating everything for every situation doesn't always work out.
True that also. But all businesses tries to get a competitive advantage in the their market, Each year a company plans to increase their sales (at least it plans :) ). Ways to increase businesses are unlimited, each business will choose its path, some will win some will not, some will choose automation/AI as a solution to grow, some of them will win some not. I think that our industry is not standardized and that's why one software will not be suitable for all sign makers. Also A software has limited functions and can not incorporate all scenarios from all sign makers way of doing things.
 

EddieBS

New Member
There are some things that AI simply doesn't understand the contextual use for. Automating EVERYTHING isnt a great answer because the training models aren't going to understand every use case scenerio for certain things.
Yes is true, but that is happening because wasn't trained good enough. Whatever you train it will do it, the outcome is as good as the input. Garbage in Garbage out
EVERY design that comes through our doors that our designers have to use that was started with AI has to be manipulated or redone to be useful for printing. So what the hell is the point? THE ONLY THING it does (for now) that is beneficial IMO is ideation. Its a great starting point.

EVERY design that comes through our doors that our designers have to use that was started with AI has to be manipulated or redone to be useful for printing. So what the hell is the point? THE ONLY THING it does (for now) that is beneficial IMO is ideation. Its a great starting point.
But this technology is already being subsidized at the expense of peoples livelihoods. This idea that we are going to support the long term growth that some how gets cheaper is a falacy. Large data centers draining resources that require updated technology in order for it to get cheaper isnt happening. And it isnt happening because transistors are as small as they've ever been. You cant pack anymore into chips and memory. We are basically at the pinnacle of physical technology has every been.
True, at leas the customer is warmed and has a direction that is easier for us to replicate, than to interview the customer to dig out what he wants!

Which means either the tech and fossil fuel industry releases black project energy technology to support the increase of energy use OR they use the tech to create the needed bump. But do you really see that happening when Sam Altman locked up like 40% of the worlds RAM supply? I don't....
And every single day that we use this tech we are aiding in that fact. Whether we benefit or not. This technology currently is at a net negative to humanity.
I wait for that day! If will ever come!
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
True that, but market will decide, if it will be too expensive the end user will not buy it.
We aren't in a truly free market that would allow for that. Keep in mind, there is quite the noisy crowd that doesn't want "AI" embedded into their computer OS and yet it is still being done so (mainly because corpos are a bigger consumer demographic compared to us peons). Now, those that do, don't care, because they want it, but for everyone it is hoisted upon them and where there are few competitors in a market, regardless if they are expensive or not, if it is a staple good, people are going to have to figure out a way to get.

True that also. But all businesses tries to get a competitive advantage in the their market, Each year a company plans to increase their sales (at least it plans :) ). Ways to increase businesses are unlimited, each business will choose its path, some will win some will not, some will choose automation/AI as a solution to grow, some of them will win some not. I think that our industry is not standardized and that's why one software will not be suitable for all sign makers. Also A software has limited functions and can not incorporate all scenarios from all sign makers way of doing things.
I don't disagree that that every company will try to get some advantage over the others, be it knowledge, automation or just sheer scale of operation. However, we are at a stage that of hype and everyone is trying one that to achieve this and that one thing isn't quite panning out, the fact that companies that are vendors of this tech are requiring their worker bees to use said tech as part of their eval, that should be telling. They, I would speculate, have unfettered access to this tech and yet still needing it to be required for their work? If it's good, people will use it (for some people, as bad as it still is, it's better compared to what they would produced and that's the more dangerous crowd actually), it wouldn't be needed for work eval.

Even in "standardized" industries, there is still going to be some uniqueness that people would benefit from some bespoke tool. There is a problem with having "AI" generate it (and this problem exist with people hand writing it as well, just from a different way) and any scaled tooling, it's not going to be easy to maintain. It will be a "trust me bro" situation, but the "bro" will be "AI". Code review is mind numbing as it is, it's even harder when some chatbot can spit out "code" at a much larger daily rate compared to a human, that's a lot of code to review that wasn't written by the person (that isn't easy, not even easy if a human is reading human written code as well or if it's the same person just with a time delay from last looking at it, there is some lag there, especially if how they do things has changed).

All of my internal tooling has been handwritten. Some rough around the edges and unpolished, I used whatever got something out working faster first and when time allowed refined it. Here is the thing, if some dependency breaks or if some API changes, I can easily go in there and fix it far quicker compared to trying to worm around some "AI" generated code that has a lot of verbosity to it.

Yes is true, but that is happening because wasn't trained good enough. Whatever you train it will do it, the outcome is as good as the input. Garbage in Garbage out
This very training itself, regardless if it was trained good (it wasn't) or not, the fact that it was trained and how it renders it's results is how this is very much not "AI". However, any commercial, ready to go "AI" that most people would pay for that isn't local is going to have whatever bent to it's learning that it's vendor wants (already have seen it and there have been some kerfuffle about it as well).

Keep in mind, I find it hard to believe that that internet hasn't already been scrapped by these bots and what any new data that they are getting is now the "slop", so we have an ouroboros situation going on right now.

This isn't even getting into the legal implications of the training data (be it for code or for art). Although that will more likely change for the corpos benefit since they have the lobby power to do something about that.

True, at leas the customer is warmed and has a direction that is easier for us to replicate, than to interview the customer to dig out what he wants!
Not necessary. Most customers don't really care about warnings and think of them as just "suggestions". I have yet to see a direction that is easy to replicate, typically because most tend not to know what is or isn't doable in the realm of physical construction. Or on the off chance that it is doable, the expense is such a sticker shock.

I wait for that day! If will ever come!
Not necessarily. Typically what happens is that current methods become so expensive that it isn't necessarily a breakthrough in tech, but some other previous expensive tech that now is starting to get "cheaper" by future of whatever was used before got so expensive. The change from whale fat to kerosene for example.
 

rydods

Member for quite some time.
What can AI do for you that is beneficial? For me I have used it to help me troubleshoot problems. But the things it asks me to do, or mentions pretends to be something close to the answer when really its just a ballpark. I've gotten better answers from experienced professionals that have industry knowledge here on this forum, than ChatGPT.
AI is only as beneficial as its training model. So how do you find it beneficial? And Im asking out of pure curiosity, not to debate.
For us it's at the very least a graphic design stepping stone. Instead of spending hours on a design, we're spending minuets generating a "concept". This is great for my younger inexperienced designer as a tool to help her a bit but not completely do the work for her.

Customers send us these AI designs as well and we use AI right back at them to re-generate better graphic images of what they sent. Usually higher resolution images and we charge for it! It really only takes a few minuets.

I'm hoping to use Claude in the near future to help us build a workflow/estimation app tailor made for our business specifically.

I'm also very interested in automating as much communication traffic like emails through AI and whatever tedious work that keeps me from doing actual physical work like printing, application, installation and service work.

I have big dreams for it and I see AI improving almost on a weekly basis at this point and I'm excited and scared to death for what the future holds.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
For us it's at the very least a graphic design stepping stone. Instead of spending hours on a design, we're spending minuets generating a "concept". This is great for my younger inexperienced designer as a tool to help her a bit but not completely do the work for her.

Ironically, this is why it's actually not good in the long run (like most tech (some of which we are finding out now with tech that we started really using in schools 20 yrs ago and why some countries are reversing)). People need to go through that spending hours on something in order to process/learn what to do, what works and why. That going over, over, and over again is actually what we need. As we go through that initial process, if we do it correctly, subsequent times do not take as much (or certainly not like that initial time), but that is part of the experience we gain. Although there is possibly the need to think of other considerations if there is no progress as well.

Ironically, if people that are more "old hat" with this stuff, by using "AI" are allowing those creative juices to atrophy. Like any other muscle, need to keep it exercised. This level of abstraction does not do that. I heard from professional programmers talk about what they call "AI Pause". Where even if they know what to write, they still wait for that suggestion (that may or may not be correct) and that jerky stop/go prevents getting into a flow state. Not good for efficiency that's for sure. I always find it amazing that those closest to the vendors of "AI" are required to use it and how much they use it is a big deal on their evals. Why? If it is as good as people think that it is, why is there a need to compel it's usage from those that are at the source of a model? They should be burning up those "tokens".

I'm hoping to use Claude in the near future to help us build a workflow/estimation app tailor made for our business specifically.
Can do that right now, and don't really need "Claude" or whatever the "AI" du jour is. I have been doing that the last 10 yrs seriously (more for my hobbies before that). I equate "AI" as power/live trace. It may work in very specific use cases, but in all others (which is by far the majority), the cleanup takes longer compared to do it out right myself from the beginning.

It will be really interesting to see how that 6 million line zig -> rust handles with Bun. Already merged into master within 6 days, so I'm sure that there was a lot of code review by people for that and all those unsafe blocks as well. Since you mentioned "Claude" and if I'm remembering correctly, "Claude" is owned by Anthropic and Anthropic acquired the open source Bun js runtime (it's amazing how some people (in general, not thinking of anyone specifically here right off hand) think that OSS can't be bought/sold/commercialized like any other software, but I digress).

I'm also very interested in automating as much communication traffic like emails through AI and whatever tedious work that keeps me from doing actual physical work like printing, application, installation and service work.
Given quite a bit of the stuff that has happened, I don't necessarily know if I would even begin to think about trusting it for that. Time will tell, but I don't know if I would be thinking about that right now.
I have big dreams for it and I see AI improving almost on a weekly basis at this point and I'm excited and scared to death for what the future holds.
Given that what passes for "AI" right now is "AI" only in the marketing sense, I don't think so. There would have to be a major infrastructure break through, supply break though and we would actually have to get "AI" like HAL, Skynet, or the MCP. Which we don't have right now. Well, let me add this caveat, the "AI" that us plebs have access to at this point. If the prompt session is long enough, it tends to "forget" suggestions that were eliminated long ago and repeats them and that repetition actually gets more frequent once it starts to show up.
 

Think713

New Member
For us it's at the very least a graphic design stepping stone. Instead of spending hours on a design, we're spending minuets generating a "concept". This is great for my younger inexperienced designer as a tool to help her a bit but not completely do the work for her.

Customers send us these AI designs as well and we use AI right back at them to re-generate better graphic images of what they sent. Usually higher resolution images and we charge for it! It really only takes a few minuets.

I'm hoping to use Claude in the near future to help us build a workflow/estimation app tailor made for our business specifically.

I'm also very interested in automating as much communication traffic like emails through AI and whatever tedious work that keeps me from doing actual physical work like printing, application, installation and service work.

I have big dreams for it and I see AI improving almost on a weekly basis at this point and I'm excited and scared to death for what the future holds.
If you're using an inexperienced designer as a fast track to "ideation" and "concepts" without the understanding of how to create them, you are essentially just turning your employee into a operator. Not a skilled designer. And to me that is sad.
 

rydods

Member for quite some time.
If you're using an inexperienced designer as a fast track to "ideation" and "concepts" without the understanding of how to create them, you are essentially just turning your employee into a operator. Not a skilled designer. And to me that is sad.
That's the future isn't it, sad as it might be. And me going along with it might be sad to you but I don't look at graphic design as an art or a skill anymore. For MY business, it's a "time killer". I'm not having her sit in a freaking chair for 6 hours a day for 1 or 2 banner designs that people expect to be $6 a square foot and they're going to throw away after 1 use. I can get her out on the production floor learning how to apply wraps and decals to windows and cars.
 

Think713

New Member
That's the future isn't it, sad as it might be. And me going along with it might be sad to you but I don't look at graphic design as an art or a skill anymore. For MY business, it's a "time killer". I'm not having her sit in a freaking chair for 6 hours a day for 1 or 2 banner designs that people expect to be $6 a square foot and they're going to throw away after 1 use. I can get her out on the production floor learning how to apply wraps and decals to windows and cars.
No that isnt the future. I'm a designer and artist by trade, and im not about to just outsource myself to technology to save a couple hrs. I can do a banner design in a lot less than 6 hrs. I also am going to create a print ready file from the getgo. Not have to continue to go down the AI rabbit hole to "fix" problems that shouldnt exist in the first place. Now getting said employee to do something more valuable is valid. BUT you are actively participating in the devalueing of art, and the industry by doing so. And that is something everyone needs to take into consideration. You cant teach taste. Good designers get paid what they do because they can see and understand problems other people don't. And very soon this AI trend is going to start recycling itself. Making everyones designs look the same. Which completely defeats the purpose of helping a brand develop an image.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
That's the future isn't it, sad as it might be.
Very sad when one has something like this happens: Article

It reminds me of that old "Dr Walter Gibbs" line: "When programs start to think, people will stop". And that was back in '82.

And me going along with it might be sad to you but I don't look at graphic design as an art or a skill anymore.
It still is, it just looks like you are willing to pass that along to someone else. You have become the customer coming in with a brief to have "AI" make it for you.

I do have to wonder, if that is your thoughts on the future going forward, why do this? If "AI" is the future, customers have access to the same bots that you would. Why not just do installation and that's it at the most? Why mess with the headache of the design process?

Now personally, I would swap that around as I prefer creating the designs moreso compared to application, but if concept/design isn't a skill/art to you anymore, why not just focus on application?

For MY business, it's a "time killer". I'm not having her sit in a freaking chair for 6 hours a day for 1 or 2 banner designs that people expect to be $6 a square foot and they're going to throw away after 1 use. I can get her out on the production floor learning how to apply wraps and decals to windows and cars.
The irony here is by doing this process, you are feeding into that expectation of costs that your customers have. In my world, the embroidery world, that would be auto conversion (some people erroneously call it "auto digitization", but I'll spare people that digression). I would say 90% of professionals out there use that process and that has caused people to expect very cheap prices and a lot of crap finished work for those that know better (most customers don't know better until it's pointed out to them and most "professionals" don't know better either, because they didn't know how to properly do things from the get go, which is going to happen with "AI" usage).

Now I am one that believes that designers should know production (don't necessarily have to do it day in and day out, but if it's all hands on deck, that's also when it can come in handy), but they should know it, especially if one is dealing with a destructive process. However, if you are getting more value out of an employee in a different position compared to what they are there for, might want to take a look at some things.

And very soon this AI trend is going to start recycling itself. Making everyones designs look the same.
I would say that it already has to a degree and it will only get worse. That's the problem with "AI" as it is now and how it is "trained", which really isn't "AI", not like what most people think of along the lines of HAL, MCP and/or Skynet. At least not the ones that we have access to anyway.
 

Think713

New Member
Now I am one that believes that designers should know production (don't necessarily have to do it day in and day out, but if it's all hands on deck, that's also when it can come in handy), but they should know it, especially if one is dealing with a destructive process. However, if you are getting more value out of an employee in a different position compared to what they are there for, might want to take a look at some things.
I started from the beginning designing specifically for production and that is something I don't think AI can come anywhere close to replacing because it takes contextual understanding of what needs to be done per project. The pitfalls of production issues only become obvious after they happen. It takes a person to address that. AI isn't going to replace that unless we have fully autonomous androids. And I think we are way off from that. Like well over a decade.
I would much rather pay a good designer worth their salt to produce high quality results. IF said designer uses upscalers and certain tools to get the job done then by all means. But to fall back on AI as the end all be all for creative output is going to pigeon hole your business into that world, and there is absolutely going to be a bubble for that, and I believe it is already begun to pop. There are countless movements all over of customers and designers that are avoiding this type of work. You might get an extra few bucks in the short run, but if you depend on an individuals skillset to continue your growth and they never possess those skills then you're going to inadvertently cost yourself more money because you will ultimately have to either train that person more, or higher someone who can do the work that is actually needed. But im not here to tell anyone how to run their business.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
I started from the beginning designing specifically for production and that is something I don't think AI can come anywhere close to replacing because it takes contextual understanding of what needs to be done per project.
The pitfalls of production issues only become obvious after they happen.
Well there is technical aspect of fixing something for production and there is a creative aspect of fixing something for production. "AI" probably is going to always be for the more technical aspects. The reason why this stuff only works in smaller cases (realistically speaking compared to how people try to shoehorn it for everything) is it fits rigid rules (same thing with live trace/power trace), it doesn't handle context well and it likes the creativity to think outside the box.

AI isn't going to replace that unless we have fully autonomous androids. And I think we are way off from that. Like well over a decade.
Well, they are going to be a huge financial pill for people to swallow, so I don't know, even if we were at that point but the smaller shops won't be able to afford those.

But to fall back on AI as the end all be all for creative output is ...
That's what the evangelists are wanting to sell it as. Or the average customer can now "do it" themselves (sorry, the "AI" is doing it, not the "prompt engineer" or whatever feel good label people are trying to ascribe to it). What we will have is creative atrophy and unfortunately, later generations may not care as much, because they are used to the dribble that "AI" is spewing forth.
 
Top