If you don't employ an electrician, how do you install signs requiring electricity?

[JERHEMI]

For those who don't employ a licensed electrician, what is your procedure for installing signs that require electricity? Do you install the signs yourself and subcontract a licensed electrician to come in and handle the electrical work? When you apply for a permit do you just add XYZ Electric as a subcontractor or do you not even say anything about electrician on permit? (Either way the insurance audit is going to ask about subcontractors and you need to supply their insurance info.) Any specific details I should be looking for or requesting when in search of the electrician? Any help on the subject would be greatly appreciated because I'm starting to get some channel letters, backlit dimensional letters leads that are coming in and I'd like to start taking them on. Thanks in advance!

 

[T_K]

At my last job (since we're not doing electrical signage at my current one), we would outsource the electrical signs. We found a great partnership with another local company - basically we did the sales & design work, then passed it off to them. They applied for the permit, manufactured the signage, and did the install. That was a highly profitable partnership for us and them, as we became their #1 customer.

If you already have the ability to manufacture and install the signage, it *might* be a possibility to only have an electrician manage the connection part of the install. But I'm out of my knowledge zone on that one and just hypothesizing. My best guess is that you'd have to have a licensed electrician actually wire up the sign components in addition to making the final connection. But again, I'm guessing there.

Outsourcing this stuff is great if you can find a good partner. You won't make as much money as doing it all in-house, but you don't have to hire specialty skills, you don't have to deal with the headaches of production and install, and you can keep your shop specialized in doing whatever your equipment is without turning away some great jobs. Btw, our sign partner also would turn around and send us their vinyl jobs, so it was a 2-way street.

 

[signbrad]

I have been in the sign industry since 1974 and I have never worked in a shop that actually had a licensed electrician on the payroll. Few sign companies can afford the wages an electrician would demand anyway.
However, in many areas, including ours, sign installers are allowed to hook up lighted signs if the hookup is near the sign (within ten feet, I believe is the rule here). We are not allowed to run a line from the service panel, and we are not really supposed to install controls (timers, for example).

The electricians union here gives provisional membership cards to sign company employees who build or install signs. They cannot work as real electricians but they can work on signs. At one shop, even I was a member of the IBEW (International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers), though I was a painter. In fact, everybody out in the shop had a card. We produced UL listed signs, but the UL inspector never asked to see credentials. He only wanted to see how the signs were built.

Of course, rules may vary in other areas.

Most electric signs are incredibly simple in construction. Anybody can learn to wire them. Having said that, it has been my experience that many sign installers have limited ability to troubleshoot electrical problems when they occur. Typically, many will just change lamps or a ballast and walk away, believing they have solved the problem. I have seen as many as four ballasts installed in the same sign in less than two years without anyone questioning why the ballasts keep failing. I think this problem is fairly common.

When I was in business and I first acquired a bucket truck, with the intention of servicing lighted signs, I paid an electrician to show me how to use a meter and do basic troubleshooting safely. He was willing to do it because he didn't want to mess with sign repair anyway as it wasn't worth his time. It was the best money I ever spent.

Brad in Kansas City

 

[T_K]

sign installers are allowed to hook up lighted signs if the hookup is near the sign (within ten feet, I believe is the rule here). We are not allowed to run a line from the service panel, and we are not really supposed to install controls (timers, for example).

Now that you mention it, I believe similar rules exist in Texas. If there is already a connection in place within X feet, the installer can plug in the sign. But that's about all they can do without licensing. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[JERHEMI]

At my last job (since we're not doing electrical signage at my current one), we would outsource the electrical signs. We found a great partnership with another local company - basically we did the sales & design work, then passed it off to them. They applied for the permit, manufactured the signage, and did the install. That was a highly profitable partnership for us and them, as we became their #1 customer.

If you already have the ability to manufacture and install the signage, it *might* be a possibility to only have an electrician manage the connection part of the install. But I'm out of my knowledge zone on that one and just hypothesizing. My best guess is that you'd have to have a licensed electrician actually wire up the sign components in addition to making the final connection. But again, I'm guessing there.

Outsourcing this stuff is great if you can find a good partner. You won't make as much money as doing it all in-house, but you don't have to hire specialty skills, you don't have to deal with the headaches of production and install, and you can keep your shop specialized in doing whatever your equipment is without turning away some great jobs. Btw, our sign partner also would turn around and send us their vinyl jobs, so it was a 2-way street.

Thank you! I'm outsourcing the manufacturing to providers like Gemini, SignFab, etc. Install projects that require a bucket truck for installation will be outsourcing as well because I don't have a bucket truck. However, projects like backlit reception signs we can handle the install ourselves, but the gray area is electrical hook up. Can probably hire an electrician for a few projects til we learn how to do it. Not sure what the procedure is here in Illinois. I can understand if new electric needs to be run to the box and would need an electrician to handle that. Or, if it's new construction build out and see if it's possible for the contractor to run the electric.

 

[JERHEMI]

I have been in the sign industry since 1974 and I have never worked in a shop that actually had a licensed electrician on the payroll. Few sign companies can afford the wages an electrician would demand anyway.
However, in many areas, including ours, sign installers are allowed to hook up lighted signs if the hookup is near the sign (within ten feet, I believe is the rule here). We are not allowed to run a line from the service panel, and we are not really supposed to install controls (timers, for example).

The electricians union here gives provisional membership cards to sign company employees who build or install signs. They cannot work as real electricians but they can work on signs. At one shop, even I was a member of the IBEW (International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers), though I was a painter. In fact, everybody out in the shop had a card. We produced UL listed signs, but the UL inspector never asked to see credentials. He only wanted to see how the signs were built.

Of course, rules may vary in other areas.

Most electric signs are incredibly simple in construction. Anybody can learn to wire them. Having said that, it has been my experience that many sign installers have limited ability to troubleshoot electrical problems when they occur. Typically, many will just change lamps or a ballast and walk away, believing they have solved the problem. I have seen as many as four ballasts installed in the same sign in less than two years without anyone questioning why the ballasts keep failing. I think this problem is fairly common.

When I was in business and I first acquired a bucket truck, with the intention of servicing lighted signs, I paid an electrician to show me how to use a meter and do basic troubleshooting safely. He was willing to do it because he didn't want to mess with sign repair anyway as it wasn't worth his time. It was the best money I ever spent.

Brad in Kansas City

Thanks for all the info Brad! One of my clients who we do their fleet graphics for just happens to be a union electric company, so I contacted them and asked them a few questions they are going to work on and get back to me. We already have a great relationship in place, so there might be some opportunity to extend that relationship with them helping my company out.

 

[rydods]

We do most of our work in Michigan and we have a bucket truck. Sign repair isn't our main focus but we do it when asked. I was trained by other electricians in my family as well as my previous employer how to replace bulbs, ballasts and sockets as well as what to look for when troubleshooting.

We've always done most of our work around when the electrical inspector is not town because the law is that you cannot do electrical repairs without being licensed or have a sign specialty license which requires 4000 hours experience under a sign company with this license. (Which I think is ridiculous and I can't work out a scenario to make the last one possible) To become licensed I'd need to hang up my business, go back to school and work for an electrician.

Recently, one of our competitors started repairing and installing lighted signs and they have been taking pictures and reporting us to the inspector. I could do the same but playing games would be time consuming and cost me money in the long run so I've gone to my electrician family members for help when we have jobs that require repair or install.

I hate doing this and I know it wastes their time even though they bill me and hiring an electrician full time would never be feasible. I'll just keep hiring out an electrician until things iron themselves out or the law makes it more realistic for us to acquire a license.

 

[OldPaint]

ELECTRIC SIGN INSTALLS:
if your just replacing existing sign that has electric to it........you can wire it...BUT MAKE SURE THE SIGN GETS AN ELECTRIC INSPECTION CODE STICKER.
workin into circuit box.......GET AN ELECTRICIAN. UNLESS YOU ARE CAPABLE OF THIS.........

 

[signcrafters london]

In all its wisdom, my local building inspector's office recently decided that only master electricians may hook any signs to primary wiring, even if it is already stubbed out. So even when I am just moving electric signs or installing new electric signs at sites that have existing wiring to the sign, the customer has to pay $400-500 for an electrician to come and spend two minutes to connect three wire nuts.

In some cases, the electrician makes more than I do. And it's a $1,000 fine, per offense, if someone other than a master electrician does this.

 

[Gino]

Not to be a , but while all you electrical people are out there, what do you think happened here.

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First of all, we did not build or instal this job. It's been up for almost 20 years. The other letters are not lighting up and they want me to replace it. I'm going over there later today or tomorrow morning, if it's not raining.

Maybe I'll start a new thread, so it'snot confusing. Sorry.

 

[JERHEMI]

Not to be a , but while all you electrical people are out there, what do you think happened here.

View attachment 116970​

First of all, we did not build or instal this job. It's been up for almost 20 years. The other letters are not lighting up and they want me to replace it. I'm going over there later today or tomorrow morning, if it's not raining.

Maybe I'll start a new thread, so it'snot confusing. Sorry.

This is exactly why I started this thread! To prevent something like this happening! :Big Laugh

 

[Billct2]

Used to see sign fires like that a lot 20-30 years ago when neon was the preferred method of lighting channel letters.
Probably arced out due to poor installation, failure to maintain proper distances from something it could arc to and failure to properly insulate.
That's the kind of stuff that caused the crackdown on electric sign installs, though flourescent and LEDs rarely have those types of issues.

 

[eahicks]

Now that you mention it, I believe similar rules exist in Texas. If there is already a connection in place within X feet, the installer can plug in the sign. But that's about all they can do without licensing. Thanks for the reminder.

In Texas, from what I gather, you HAVE to have a licensed electrician on your PAYROLL, no subbing out an electrician. You can't pull a permit without one. SO....we do zero electrical work.

 

[Desert_Signs]

I'm a registered contractor - for signs. I am allowed to hook up to existing electrical within 6' of the sign.

 

[visual800]

The process here for getting sign permits for channel letters is take them a drawing, they look at it and then and then you pay them a percentage of the cost of the sign . There is no follow up inspection UNLESS the inspector is on the job during a new construction install of the whole facility. You walk out the door and done.

So basically they are not inspecting anything you just paid them a fee to put it up. Revenue enhancing at its finest.

I hook up all the electrical and I do it right. IF there is an issue with the main line for the sign. I pass that over to the client and they deal with it thru the owner of building. IF I see the main line is chained to all other signs in that building I do NOT hook it up and explain that to client. If I see the line chained to other fixtures suck as parking lots lots or canopy lights I do not hook it up.

LED is pretty forgiving simple and basic, its much more of a pleasure to deal with than neon and 50# ballasts. I have seen some horrible work up inside the walls behind signs mostly because they know the inspector will never go up there, but thats uncalled for

 

[ams]

Here in Virginia our sign contractor license covers existing electrical. So we can hook up any electrical wiring to the sign. We cannot run new lines or anything. So we rarely need an electrician, only when a new line or similar is needed.