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Illustrator vs. Gimp

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
Pro tip: pros use Illustrator. It's the de facto standard because it's powerful and efficient. Flexi may suffice if you're a small shop that doesn't do much design/layouts or if you mainly do cut vinyl.

Twaddle. People think this is the case because Adobe gives its product to schools. No doubt to foster the myth that it's some sort of standard. If all you are taught and all you know is Adobe then it looks to you like Adibe is all there is.
 

LF Printer Parts

New Member
I have a guy wanting to work for me and he designs with illustrator. I don't have Illustrator, I mostly use Flexi. I do have Gimp but have never tried it. I was told they were real similar. Would it be good to practice with Gimp until I could get Illustrator? Are they that similar? What is the minimum Illustrator I could use? I have Photoshop CS5 so I don't need some big packge.
I would definitely recommend AI. Gimp is free, it can help out for small jobs but by experience, if you make frequent use you will save a lot of time with AI (no need for newer versions).
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
bob said:
People think this is the case because Adobe gives its product to schools.

Specifically, what schools are getting Adobe's software for free? Educational discounts are available to schools, but that's a lot different from getting the software for free. BTW, the same kinds of educational discounts are available for buying software many other vendors.

I personally would not recommend any college or vo-tech waste time teaching courses in Flexi, Gerber Omega or any other sign industry design application. That's a very narrow niche. Proficiency in an app like Illustator can translate to other applications.

As to the whole "myth" that Adobe's software is standard, it comes down to what niche of the graphic design & advertising field where someone is working. Adobe's software is heavily used in major publications and national ad firms. Most of the major corporate branding assets we receive for various projects was generated using Adobe's software. I rarely ever see a CDR file from anyone. And the only time I ever see something like a Flexi .FS file is if it came from another sign company.

We have 3 seats of Flexi at my workplace. They're all used on production computers connected to vinyl cutters, routing tables or digital printers. I previously used CASmate and then Flexi on my work PC, but not anymore. All the vector design work is done in either CorelDRAW or Adobe Illustrator. The industry specific "CAS" apps are woefully deficient in a number of areas, TYPE being the worst. That really calls into question the high price some of these applications (such as Flexi). Full support of the OpenType spec is badly lacking in those apps and there is zero support for newer things like OTF Variable Fonts. Support of variable fonts in CorelDRAW is unstable. Adobe Illustrator is currently the best alternative for that.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
I would definitely recommend AI. Gimp is free, it can help out for small jobs but by experience, if you make frequent use you will save a lot of time with AI (no need for newer versions).
Given that GIMP has more in common with Ps then Ai, I would actually suggest Inkscape as that would be more in common with Ai then GIMP.
I would hesitate with this notion of "getting what you pay for". While statistically that may be the case more often then not, it isn't always the case. Sometimes it could be due to features actually lacking in the "free" version (in that case, I would agree with the assessment) or it could be that the user just doesn't know the work arounds (or care to do the work arounds even if they do exist).

It really is going to come done what one needs and what options provide that ability.

Specifically, what schools are getting Adobe's software for free? Educational discounts are available to schools, but that's a lot different from getting the software for free. BTW, the same kinds of educational discounts are available for buying software many other vendors.
Regardless if it's given at a discount or it's given for free. The point is the same. The more one is exposed to one software over the other, it creates brand loyalty to use one software package over another. Especially when that exposure is done at a younger age. Now granted, giving it to people free is better then just doing discounts, but then end result is far better then those that may be exposed to an alternative later on (regardless if that alternative is free or not or even better then what the user previously learned) and they don't want to have to learn something new (which I would argue is a dangerous thought process to have, but that's just me) or have to worry about exporting different file formats to use in those alternatives with varying degrees of success, compound that with years of those file formats can add up to a massive headache the longer it goes.

There is a good reason why vendors want to get in the education sector. It definitely does contribute to further usage, especially at full subscription price nowadays.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
Regardless if it's given at a discount or it's given for free. The point is the same. The more one is exposed to one software over the other, it creates brand loyalty to use one software package over another
The point is irrelevant. Adobe offering educational discounts is no different than other vendors offering the same discounts. BTW, this notion that schools are controlling what applications creative workers use is a bunch of hogwash. Schools are making their software and hardware buying decisions based on what is being used in the workplace. Not the other way around. If there is any sort of prejudicial bias or brand loyalty taking place it has far more to do with Apple's hardware than it does with Adobe.

In most areas of creative work, such as traditional print advertising, newspaper and magazine production as well as broadcast and video, the Mac platform has been dominant for decades. And Adobe has been the leader in general purpose creative applications on the Mac platform for the same period of time. The infrastructure of software, hardware, industry-specific plug-ins, etc in those categories has long been established going back to the 1980's. That's the one factor where Adobe has its advantage over other firms, such as Corel.

The sign industry is an outlier to all of that. Most sign shops, especially long established companies, use Windows-based hardware. That's only because much of the industry specific software and hardware was developed first for MS-DOS and Windows. There have been very few options available on the Mac side over the years, maybe even less options today than ever. CorelDRAW became the dominant vector drawing application for sign companies because of that situation; it was the best of what was available on the Windows side for a good part of the 1990's. Just like Adobe got entrenched in many ad agencies, CorelDRAW got entrenched in many sign shops.

The sign industry doesn't do a whole lot to influence or drive the rest of the advertising industry in terms of hardware and software buying decisions. With large format printing and motion graphics on LED displays Adobe has making more inroads into the sign industry space.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
The point is irrelevant. Adobe offering educational discounts is no different than other vendors offering the same discounts. BTW, this notion that schools are controlling what applications creative workers use is a bunch of hogwash. Schools are making their software and hardware buying decisions based on what is being used in the workplace. Not the other way around. If there is any sort of prejudicial bias or brand loyalty taking place it has far more to do with Apple's hardware than it does with Adobe.
There is very little what each software can accomplish for 90% (if not more) that there isn't the ability in a competitive package right now (not the same when I was in HS and everything was Apple this, Apple that). Sure, there are some features that are more desirable then others that still lend an edge compared to another package, but that doesn't affect everyone here. The fact that there are quite a few on here that are able to switch to software packages outside the 2 that are most commonly are mentioned is a testament to that fact (a common third alternative is Designer (no, I'm not saying that is for everyone, that is just an example of a common software that I see people that mention when leaving the other two)).

Now, the fact that Corel seems to have gone down in QC, doesn't help their cause any.

Sure accepting outside file formats is a thing, but again, that isn't necessarily a function of one software being functionally better then the other (on the same level as OTF usage, which is a biggie for you), but depending on how much one is dependent on that aspect of accepting outside files, tends to be what keeps people with one software over another (or they just have that software for that sole purpose), that tells me that software is much more competitively even then what someone would think if just going thru school. Or at least was before the aforementioned QC issues.
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
If the schools used gimp or inkscape then y'all would be on here whining that the schools aren't teaching things that are relevant in the real world. They'd be stupid to be using anything but AI. Corel is like peachtree where adobe is quickbooks. Neither is perfect but one is the standard. I use Corel but that doesn't make me oblivious to reality.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
There is very little what each software can accomplish for 90% (if not more) that there isn't the ability in a competitive package right now (not the same when I was in HS and everything was Apple this, Apple that). Sure, there are some features that are more desirable then others that still lend an edge compared to another package, but that doesn't affect everyone here.

You're understating the compatibility gaps between general purpose applications like Adobe Illustrator and CorelDRAW. If someone is only using sign industry "CAS" software the file compatibility divide widens by a great deal more. Being able to open a certain file created in an "industry standard" graphics application with 100% accuracy is very important. It's not some artsy-fartsy indulgence of just wanting "more desirable" features in a given application. A lot of people in many areas of advertising and design use Adobe's software because there are no practical alternatives in their work flow.

WildWestDesigns said:
The fact that there are quite a few on here that are able to switch to software packages outside the 2 that are most commonly are mentioned is a testament to that fact (a common third alternative is Designer (no, I'm not saying that is for everyone, that is just an example of a common software that I see people that mention when leaving the other two)).

There are some sign makers who clearly could live with Arial being the only type family in their font collection. The sign industry does not dictate standards across all the other fields of graphic design either. The thread had drifted over into a debate about what was the "industry standard." Across the entire graphics industry Adobe is doing more to live up to that than any other creative software vendor currently.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
:roflmao: Same ol'..... same ol'. Still arguing over this nonsense after 7 years.

Where were you guys before computers ?? What did you argue about, then ?? Use a #12 or an #8 ?? Flat, squirrel or do you use a mahl stick or just clasp your hands together ?? Did you box your paint or just straight outta the can ?? Do ya use thinner, kerosene, naphtha or penetrol ?? Did you build your letters or did you just fly off the brush ?? Did you use scotch tape and cheat ?? Good Grief, it was so much simpler then....................:sleepin:
 

netsol

Premium Subscriber
Specifically, what schools are getting Adobe's software for free? Educational discounts are available to schools, but that's a lot different from getting the software for free. BTW, the same kinds of educational discounts are available for buying software many other vendors.

I personally would not recommend any college or vo-tech waste time teaching courses in Flexi, Gerber Omega or any other sign industry design application. That's a very narrow niche. Proficiency in an app like Illustator can translate to other applications.

As to the whole "myth" that Adobe's software is standard, it comes down to what niche of the graphic design & advertising field where someone is working. Adobe's software is heavily used in major publications and national ad firms. Most of the major corporate branding assets we receive for various projects was generated using Adobe's software. I rarely ever see a CDR file from anyone. And the only time I ever see something like a Flexi .FS file is if it came from another sign company.

We have 3 seats of Flexi at my workplace. They're all used on production computers connected to vinyl cutters, routing tables or digital printers. I previously used CASmate and then Flexi on my work PC, but not anymore. All the vector design work is done in either CorelDRAW or Adobe Illustrator. The industry specific "CAS" apps are woefully deficient in a number of areas, TYPE being the worst. That really calls into question the high price some of these applications (such as Flexi). Full support of the OpenType spec is badly lacking in those apps and there is zero support for newer things like OTF Variable Fonts. Support of variable fonts in CorelDRAW is unstable. Adobe Illustrator is currently the best alternative for that.

All of them
Go to techsoup.org

Schools, libraries, "charities" of all types (even those engaged in fiery uncharitable activities)

Software worth THOUSANDS given away for a sometimes $10. Admin fee

Many if my clients are "not for profit" so we deal with this all the time

It's disturbing to find out, we are the only ones in a long line, actually paying for our products
 

netsol

Premium Subscriber
example, new windows server license $795 (?) tech soup $10 admin fee

I am not even sure what a real business pays, anymore. Once you have a VLC or MPSA account, you give it a credit card and it just dispenses licenses, buying them as needed. (Kind of like EZ-Pass, you never see details of the purchase)
 

netsol

Premium Subscriber
Just to be clear, I am not the recipient of any of this largess, I am standing in the wrong line, just like the rest of you, but I know what I pay when purchasing for "not for profits"

In much the same way that we pay so much for health care, because damn. Few are paying, the same principle applies to your software purchases. Sorry, bobbyh, don't ask questions if you would rather not know the answer. (It's annoying when you discover the deck is stacked against you)
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
netsol said:
All of them

All schools? Bull$#!+. Just here in my city I can give you two examples that definitely do not get the software for free: Cameron University and Great Plains Technology Center. Both of them have to pay the academic rates for Adobe's software. They're not getting any breaks. The departments they have which teach graphics and photography courses have to scrounge for all kind of other things, such as any computing hardware, periphreals, etc. On top of that, year after year, the department chairs are trying their best to keep others who hate "unnecessary" artsy fartsy stuff from completely killing their programs. I know this because I'm on an advisory panel for the graphics and photography dept at GPTC and know several staff members over at Cameron.

netsol said:
It's disturbing to find out, we are the only ones in a long line, actually paying for our products

Out of people not paying for software, I have a far bigger problem with people doing paid graphic design work using pirated software. There is even a bunch of people in the sign industry doing that.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
You're understating the compatibility gaps between general purpose applications like Adobe Illustrator and CorelDRAW. If someone is only using sign industry "CAS" software the file compatibility divide widens by a great deal more. Being able to open a certain file created in an "industry standard" graphics application with 100% accuracy is very important. It's not some artsy-fartsy indulgence of just wanting "more desirable" features in a given application. A lot of people in many areas of advertising and design use Adobe's software because there are no practical alternatives in their work flow.

No, my point was that the functional difference between the two programs is not like it was back in the late 80s, early 90s (or even throughout the 90s, hard to remember that far back). Opening up closed file formats is not the same thing. That can be an issue regardless of software, crap even Ai and Draw don't even do a good job of importing in open file formats, you expect them to handled incomplete documented closed file formats?

But keeping around a software package just to open a file format doesn't necessarily mean that it is a functionally better product (opening/importing etc is only one aspect along with other aspects).

Now, if you actually need a specific software, fine. I would just be hesitant to think that the next person has the same exact needs.


There are some sign makers who clearly could live with Arial being the only type family in their font collection. The sign industry does not dictate standards across all the other fields of graphic design either. The thread had drifted over into a debate about what was the "industry standard." Across the entire graphics industry Adobe is doing more to live up to that than any other creative software vendor currently.

And being in the education sector is a big part of that. I can understand colleges having that as that would go into your point. HS, no, sorry, no. That's getting them while they are young(er).

My HS actually had some type of partnership with Apple. I think most of the stuff was donated (I wouldn't be surprised if software was as well, but I don't remember to that degree of detail) and they were the latest and greatest at the time. That's getting into the school system. Now do all schools get that, no. However, the more schools that they are in, the more of their potential lifetime userbase there is. I highly doubt Chromebooks are in all schools (my old HS uses traditional laptops now on what's given out to students, ironically Windows (the lab is still Apple)), but I would imagine that there are a lot more people that are used to the GSuite then Office 365, because Google probably has that sector covered far, far more.

If the schools used gimp or inkscape then y'all would be on here whining that the schools aren't teaching things that are relevant in the real world. They'd be stupid to be using anything but AI. Corel is like peachtree where adobe is quickbooks. Neither is perfect but one is the standard. I use Corel but that doesn't make me oblivious to reality.
Don't underestimate marketing. Reason why schools/governments use certain OSs versus others. Marketing and lobbying and then it's what people have been used to for years and years and once a certain age threshold is crossed, the desired to learn something totally out of box is less appealing (and there are good reasons for that). Even if they aren't the best ones out there. By the way, I think Peachtree is the standard, at least from an accountants usage (ball and chain is an accountant). I'm speculating that since Corel is supposed to be like peachtree, I was under the impression that peachtree is not supposed to be the standard.

Ironically the industry standard software in my neck of the graphics world is actually partnered up with Corel and has Corel integrated with their system (and that's also why Ai is not what is out there in that world either). That's the kind of thing that gets people using other products. That's why getting into schools does not hurt at all.

Out of people not paying for software, I have a far bigger problem with people doing paid graphic design work using pirated software. There is even a bunch of people in the sign industry doing that.

That happens in every industry, nothing new about that. That's also going to a catalyst for a bigger push to webview apps or just flat out full fledge apps that call a server for the logic (well this and the notion that we should be happy about owning nothing (although with regard to Ai and Draw never really owned it in the first place, even back in the good ole days). Most people are are already used to having to have always connected apps as it is. Not that far of a stretch to do a webview app.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
No, my point was that the functional difference between the two programs is not like it was back in the late 80s, early 90s (or even throughout the 90s, hard to remember that far back).

Actually in many respects the lack of feature overlap and divide in compatibility of files is worse now than it was back then. Most vector drawing apps have the basics covered. But then they diverge greatly in how they handle fills, transparency, fonts, art/pattern brushes on line strokes and more.

You're not using the current version of Adobe Illustrator, CorelDRAW and other rival applications like I am. So you really don't know the differences between these apps and the very real challenges of moving artwork from one of these applications to another.

WildWestDesigns said:
But keeping around a software package just to open a file format doesn't necessarily mean that it is a functionally better product (opening/importing etc is only one aspect along with other aspects).

Well, Illustrator is functionally better than CorelDRAW since the application is far better maintained and far more actively developed. CorelDRAW is being neglected, kind of like Freehand was in its final years. Illustrator has vastly superior integration with applications like Photoshop and After Effects than CorelDRAW does with PhotoPaint. It has a better type engine and supports more type technologies. Illustrator has more plug-ins available to it than CorelDRAW. I won't even get into how far the various "CAS" apps come up short; those applications are stuck in the 1990's in terms of their functions. They're only good for connecting to a vinyl cutter or using in conjunction with routing table software.
 

netsol

Premium Subscriber
All schools? Bull$#!+. Just here in my city I can give you two examples that definitely do not get the software for free: Cameron University and Great Plains Technology Center. Both of them have to pay the academic rates for Adobe's software. They're not getting any breaks. The departments they have which teach graphics and photography courses have to scrounge for all kind of other things, such as any computing hardware, periphreals, etc. On top of that, year after year, the department chairs are trying their best to keep others who hate "unnecessary" artsy fartsy stuff from completely killing their programs. I know this because I'm on an advisory panel for the graphics and photography dept at GPTC and know several staff members over at Cameron.



Out of people not paying for software, I have a far bigger problem with people doing paid graphic design work using pirated software. There is even a bunch of people in the sign industry doing that.
Bobbyh
ANYONE with a 501c3 certificate pays only an admin fee. The software is a donation & the "donor" gets a tax break. Sorry, that is s just how the world works.
 

netsol

Premium Subscriber
Acedemic software is for students & teachers to purchase software for their own use. Techsoup is one of the largest, but only one of a large list of organizations where schools get their software
 

Bradley Signs

Bradley Signs
If he suits your needs, what diff does it make as to what program he uses as long as the files can be exported to what you use?
Ask if he can bring a copy and put it on one of your puters, then, if or when he leaves, you can access the files after he is gone.
You learn something new, he gets a couple extra duckies for giving you a copy of the program, and you both win with no snotty attituded involved.
Could he even file share from his computer at home?
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
Funny, when I graduated in 1993 and got my first design job at a print shop (business cards, letterhead, flyers, etc), they used (I can't remember) it was a code system. <FT>arial<LS>12 -- whatever that is. Of course I knew how to use it and I did, but Illustrator was the new thing and that's what I preferred to use, plus who can deny how much EASIER it is to use! They ended up buying Illustrator but if I was off and the owner needed to access something, she had no idea how to use the program. She would go in at night and reset a lot of my work in the code program so she had it on file. She ended up telling me NO MORE ILLUSTRATOR! I quit after a year.

My advice would be to make sure everything he does can be imported into Flexi and call it good. Although a gentle nudge to start using Flexi would be a good idea.
 
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