Question laminating issues with Alupanel and Max metal from Grimco in Toronto

[dasigndr]

I want to know if anyone else is having laminating issues with Alupanel and Max metal from Grimco in Toronto.
Over the last 6 months or more I have purchased Alupanel and Maxmetal 3mm sheets and have had three distinctive "valleys" that produce bubbles along the 8ft length of the sheets.They are in the centre of the sheet. I have ruined multiple prints and countless dollars wasted in redoing my prints. I have had at least 2 different orders, months apart, that have given me issues. I have done multiple tests with our laminator to see if it was the laminator. I have even gone out and bought other brands from other suppliers and NO ISSUES!! Grimco has come good on the initial order of 27 sheets and replaced them because they had another sign shop on the phone at the same time I was calling to complain of the same issue so they replaced them.

I have had several other batches of Alupanel and Maxmetal do the same thing. I even spoke to GRIMCO and the Alupanel UK rep which was in Toronto at the recent sign show and he said he would look into it and get back. Guess what??? No reply whatsoever!!

Any guidance, professional help or comments is greatly appreciated!!

Hard to see in photo but these bubbles go up the entire length of the sheet.

 

[Gino]

I'm no expert on laminating, but that looks like your material is either cupping or your roller is not making 100% contact.

 

[dasigndr]

I'm no expert on laminating, but that looks like your material is either cupping or your roller is not making 100% contact.

Hello Gino, it is NOT the material nor the the laminator. we had tested with multiple types of vinyl, laminate, reflective, different brands, different thickness, etc...Like I said, we have started having this issue months ago and after umpteen dozen tests and even having my laminator berings replaced and the rolls inspected by a professional roll fabricator, all points to faulty Alupanel and Metalmax product.

 

[Signed Out]

We had several sheets of max metal very similar to this recently from Grimco. You could actually see a faint crease running up the middle in the right lighting. Our kala laminator gave us trouble mounting prints onto these boards. We ran them through our Royal Soverign laminator and they came out fine. Difference was the rolls on the kala have a much thinner rubber coating than the RS so the RS was able to "conform" to the faint valley.

That said there was clearly an issue with the material, for our purpose it didn't matter so we went with it. But they should replace the panels.

 

[Gino]

So, if the material is not cupping and it's not the laminator, what's left ??

How are the substrates being stored at the warehouse ?? Flat or on it's edge. How are you storing it ??

 

[dasigndr]

So, if the material is not cupping and it's not the laminator, what's left ??

How are the substrates being stored at the warehouse ?? Flat or on it's edge. How are you storing it ??

we have had this issue with all the test materials.from the ones being stored horizontal on a rack, the ones standing up on a rack. I don't believe it was the material being mounted.

 

[Gino]

Let's try this again.

Looking at your picture, you're using flake board for your table and it's pieced together. Not at any good for long runs of laminating. The material in your pictures doesn't look like 3mm ACM, either. However, regardless of what it is, it's not setting 100% flat on that table at the end. How do we know how well it feeds in at the other end ?? Your table top should be some very rigid 100% flat surface for something as thin as 3mm ACM. That sh!t warps (cups) just looking at it. Now, it that stuff is stored on end, it will create a natural bow in it, creating a cup, exactly as your picture appears. Compound the bow of the material and the bow of the table, you're gonna get spots just as you're showing in your picture.

Most warehouses store this stuff and just about all other flat stock.... FLAT. As I asked earlier, how are you storing it ?? Even for a day or two.

In the years I've been laminating or the guys here laminating...... anything from cheap vinyl to rigid lam to you name it...... the only consistent part of this equation is perfect components in place to prevent cupping. If the board was bowed the other way, your bubbles would be more towards the outer edge of the substrate.

 

[ikarasu]

I can see its ACM - It looks like you sheeted about an inch away from the edge? It also looks like the bubbles / bowing is only on the ends, not all throughout.... I would hazard a guess and say you got to the end of the sheet your laminating, and when the backer came off, or when it came around the roll.. the vinyl slightly lifted and that would cause the issue your having. Just from seeing this picture... I'd say thats likely the culprit.

Now... a little education since it seems a lot of people don't realize this. Not all Alupanel is made equally - Alupanel is plastic on the insides, and then "Skinned" with aluminum on the outside - Every vendor uses different sized "Skins" - Grimcos max panel is one of the thinner aluminum skins we've ever seen... It bends very easy, and likely warps/bows pretty easy.

Max-metal 0.15mm aluminum thickness

Alupanel is .3MM... Alupanel light is even higher at .2MM

Check out lairds Alumanate.. Their standard is 2MM and theyre equal pricing to max metal give or take a few dollars, depending on how many you buy... we purchase hundreds of sheets a year from laird and never have issues. I tried maxmetal once for a job... got 8 signs, and when I lifting 2 at a time and putting it into the truck.. the weight of me lifting it on one end caused it to bend/bow. It's probably the lowest ACM material we've ever tried.

 

[dasigndr]

Let's try this again.

Looking at your picture, you're using flake board for your table and it's pieced together. Not at any good for long runs of laminating. The material in your pictures doesn't look like 3mm ACM, either. However, regardless of what it is, it's not setting 100% flat on that table at the end. How do we know how well it feeds in at the other end ?? Your table top should be some very rigid 100% flat surface for something as thin as 3mm ACM. That sh!t warps (cups) just looking at it. Now, it that stuff is stored on end, it will create a natural bow in it, creating a cup, exactly as your picture appears. Compound the bow of the material and the bow of the table, you're gonna get spots just as you're showing in your picture.

Most warehouses store this stuff and just about all other flat stock.... FLAT. As I asked earlier, how are you storing it ?? Even for a day or two.

In the years I've been laminating or the guys here laminating...... anything from cheap vinyl to rigid lam to you name it...... the only consistent part of this equation is perfect components in place to prevent cupping. If the board was bowed the other way, your bubbles would be more towards the outer edge of the substrate.

as mentioned in my other msg. we have done 100's upon 100's of these mounts, though I appreciate your wanting to eliminate ANY possible pre-mounting issue. My point is that we have used their product (Alupanel and Metalmax) on and off and recently, purposely going to another brand (for instance, blackbond, from Spicers) and absolutely no issues!! We have tested this over the last few months with separate orders allowing for possible bad lot/batch of alupanels and NOPE...only issues are when we mount to ALupanel and Metalmax.
I just did a whole bunch today (Not Alupanel or Metalmax) and absolutely NO ISSUES!!!!

 

[dasigndr]

I can see its ACM - It looks like you sheeted about an inch away from the edge? It also looks like the bubbles / bowing is only on the ends, not all throughout.... I would hazard a guess and say you got to the end of the sheet your laminating, and when the backer came off, or when it came around the roll.. the vinyl slightly lifted and that would cause the issue your having. Just from seeing this picture... I'd say thats likely the culprit.

Now... a little education since it seems a lot of people don't realize this. Not all Alupanel is made equally - Alupanel is plastic on the insides, and then "Skinned" with aluminum on the outside - Every vendor uses different sized "Skins" - Grimcos max panel is one of the thinner aluminum skins we've ever seen... It bends very easy, and likely warps/bows pretty easy.

Max-metal 0.15mm aluminum thickness

Alupanel is .3MM... Alupanel light is even higher at .2MM

Check out lairds Alumanate.. Their standard is 2MM and theyre equal pricing to max metal give or take a few dollars, depending on how many you buy... we purchase hundreds of sheets a year from laird and never have issues. I tried maxmetal once for a job... got 8 signs, and when I lifting 2 at a time and putting it into the truck.. the weight of me lifting it on one end caused it to bend/bow. It's probably the lowest ACM material we've ever tried.

Hello Ikarasu, I am aware of all the different thickness' of aluminum on the different types and brands. It is not my first BBQ. LOL Been in the business for over 30yrs, if that clarifies a few things? LOL
The photo I posted showing the bubbles right at the beginning edge does not show the entire sheet very well. The bubbles are consistent ALL THE WAY DOWN THE FULL 8FT LENGTH OF THE SHEET!@!!!

 

[ikarasu]

If other customers are experiencing it too, they may have a bad shipment , or something else is wrong... sadly them replacing it doesnt help all your lost labor / production costs. I'd switch vendors until they get it sorted out - Money talks... and losing business will get them to figure it out quicker than using you guys as testers.

Dumb question, but how come your sheeting white ACM with white vinyl? Not that it matters... just curious!

 

[Gino]

Combine what you just said to me and what ikara just said..... the only common denominator is the cheap stuff is bowing on ya. That's what I'm getting at. We have the same problem sometimes on the flatbed. Sometimes the 3mm stuff wants to lift on some pieces and not others. It's always the cheap stuff doing it.

 

[dasigndr]

If other customers are experiencing it too, they may have a bad shipment , or something else is wrong... sadly them replacing it doesnt help all your lost labor / production costs. I'd switch vendors until they get it sorted out - Money talks... and losing business will get them to figure it out quicker than using you guys as testers.

Dumb question, but how come your sheeting white ACM with white vinyl? Not that it matters... just curious!

we print directly to the 3mm blackbond with our HPFB750 then apply overlaminate!

 

[unclebun]

Even if there is some irregularity in the panel, seems like the laminator ought to be able to squash them out. How hard are the rollers on the laminator? We use MaxMetal all the time, and though we rarely use the laminator to mount a print, the few times I have, I experienced no bubbles. If you lay a piece of the MaxMetal on a flat surface, can you see the grooves you think you are experiencing? Or if you mic'ed them can you measure an appreciable difference in thickness across the panel?

 

[CanuckSigns]

I Havn't had that exact issue, but we have noticed the AluPanel brand sheets always have tons of surface imperfections in them, little dings and dents, and buts of crud stuck under the paint, but no issues with max metal

 

[dasigndr]

Even if there is some irregularity in the panel, seems like the laminator ought to be able to squash them out. How hard are the rollers on the laminator? We use MaxMetal all the time, and though we rarely use the laminator to mount a print, the few times I have, I experienced no bubbles. If you lay a piece of the MaxMetal on a flat surface, can you see the grooves you think you are experiencing? Or if you mic'ed them can you measure an appreciable difference in thickness across the panel?

yes we can actually see the valleys in the sheets surface prior to printing and or mounting.

 

[TrustMoore_TN]

Hello Ikarasu, I am aware of all the different thickness' of aluminum on the different types and brands. It is not my first BBQ. LOL Been in the business for over 30yrs, if that clarifies a few things? LOL
The photo I posted showing the bubbles right at the beginning edge does not show the entire sheet very well. The bubbles are consistent ALL THE WAY DOWN THE FULL 8FT LENGTH OF THE SHEET!@!!!

I know you're frustrated... but !!!!!WHY ARE YOU YELLING AT PEOPLE GIVING YOU FEEDBACK!!!!!

 

[gabagoo]

I buy from the same branch but have not experienced what you are getting. I would think if there was an imperfection in the material you would easily see it before putting in the laminator.. Tha laminator in the pic looks like a manual version that you hand crank? Could you be rolling it too fast?

 

[dasigndr]

I know you're frustrated... but !!!!!WHY ARE YOU YELLING AT PEOPLE GIVING YOU FEEDBACK!!!!!

lol...sorry I did not notice the caps was on!!

 

[dasigndr]

I buy from the same branch but have not experienced what you are getting. I would think if there was an imperfection in the material you would easily see it before putting in the laminator.. Tha laminator in the pic looks like a manual version that you hand crank? Could you be rolling it too fast?

The sheets do show visual bumps in it with the naked eye, but we never really noticed, or thought to look at them until we started getting this issue. We have tried sloooooowww and FAST!!! Both the same results!
Like I stated in a previous post, Grimco came good for the first batch but now they are saying we are the only ones reporting this, thus it is our laminator!! I have had our laminator inspected, had the bushings redone and no issues with any other materials other than the Alupanel and Metalmax from Grimco. We have used other brands from other suppliers and NO ISSUES whatsoever!!

I was told that ALupanel and Metalmax are made in the same factory!