Mimaki UCJV300-160 - Problem Printing Red

[iPrintStuff]

I think you can get a free trial of onyx, probably caldera too.

We upgraded from a mimaki CJV-30 (and rasterlink 5) to a Colorado that we ran though onyx.

Rasterlink 5, we had a profile that was great and we ran every media on (wouldn’t dream of that now) but we did upgrade to RL6 when we changed to windows 10. Honestly, after using RL6 for a month I paid whatever the upgrade cost was to add another printer onto onyx. Worth every penny.

So instead of using the free RL6, I opted to may more to get the hell away from rasterlink.

We already had i1’s for calibrating our digital machines so after moving each printer onto onyx, we started using that for our profile creation so I haven’t ever had to try mimaki’s version.

I can note however, on rasterlink 6 I struggled to find any canned profiles that were half reasonable so I know the struggle. Now I have no such worries!

 

[PixelImola]

Thank you iPrintStuff for this interesting information. We had in fact considered Onyx, together with Caldera, but we have not yet made a choice. May I inquire what persuaded you, convinced you to move to Onyx rather than to another renowned RIP, some mentioned in this Forum.
Have you found that the Onyx RIP offers more than Rasterlink or that it is simply easier to use ?
You mention i1's, are you referring to the X-Rite i1Display Pro Plus by any chance ?
We had already checked and there is in fact a trial version for the Caldera RIP.

 

[Solventinkjet]

Have you found that the Onyx RIP offers more than Rasterlink or that it is simply easier to use ?

Onyx is a full featured RIP built from the ground up. Rasterlink is a watered down version of Wasatch with a Mimaki UI wrapped around it. So Onyx is going to be the more fully featured software and it will run other brands of machines as well for future growth.

 

[iPrintStuff]

Offers much more. It’s much more user friendly, you have a lot more options/control over jobs and has built in ICC profile creation providing you have a measurement device.

We only really switched to onyx because we got the Colorado (obviously won’t run on RL as it’s not a mimaki lol) and that’s what it came with. Hence my saying caldera is probably a fine option. Onyx definitely works for us though.

Much easier to set up jobs, has the ability to add cut lines within the rip (only squares/oblong shapes but still very helpful). Add grommet marks/hem lines for banners, scaling print and cut jobs. Stepping up different artworks is much easier.. adding bleeds to jobs without bleeds is great! the list is endless. Even silly stuff like it letting you specify a sheet size and it’ll step up your job(s) into that sheet size so you can send multiple pages with unique cutter marks. All of which were a LOT more hands on when we used rasterlink but take seconds in onyx.

But it’s worth seeing how they’ll all work for YOU.

Just as far as I’m concerned it takes me one click in onyx to do the work of three in rasterlink. Much better UI as well. I have so many hot folders set up with different job types/media settings/marks/bleeds that I rarely have to actually set up most jobs nowadays. Drop it in the folder and hit print.

 

[unclebun]

Why don't most here recommend Caldera? Probably because it's a French company and Onyx is American. And most users of this forum are in the US or Canada. Since both are full-featured RIP software, rather than decontented software bundled with the printer, either one should vastly outperform Rasterlink, and have better profiles available for download for many more media, that should work fine without any need for doing profiles yourself. Both Caldera and Onyx are available as a free trial. You should be able to give them both a trial run and prove that they have downloadable profiles for your media that print well. Then I would look at the vendors for the two in Italy and talk to them about what kind of support is available to you there. I use Onyx, and can just call them on the phone in Utah and talk to them about problems I have. They may or may not have support that speaks Italian. I know they have an option to toggle their website into Italian. So they might have personnel in Italy to talk to.

Now that you have figured things out, it is clear that there is not actually anything wrong with your printer. The problems you had were due to bad profiles which you downloaded to use with Rasterlink. Although my first printer was a Mimaki that came with Rasterlink, the vendor I purchased it from strongly recommended against Rasterlink because of the lack of features, the lack of support, and the lack of available profiles. So I started with Onyx, and continue to use it even though I have moved on to an Epson printer. I never even installed Rasterlink. Even though the couple of thousand dollars you would have spent buying Onyx or Caldera would have seemed like a lot of money at the beginning, think of how much money you have lost trying to solve the printing problems the free bundled software was causing.

 

[ColorCrest]

As present it would seem that the main cause of the problem was due to a poorly chosen profile by the Mimaki technician during the installation of the plotter.

Actually, the choice of profiles is the responsibility of the operator(s), both prepress and press. I've looked at the ICC profiles and they are fine.

The objective here, as far as trouble shooting, is to eliminate variables as opposed to introducing more variable such as incorporating other RIP software. Another software may be in store for your shop in the future but, for now, I recommend finding where the process failed so it's not repeated.

Again, training is in order.

 

[balstestrat]

I work with both Onyx and Caldera. Both are great and both have their own things. Caldera only works with OSX and Debian so you probably need a dedicated PC for it. Onyx then only works with windows but that works for most people out of the box.

Every Onyx user knows it has its own hiccups and Caldera is definitely way better at this. It has maybe 1/10 of the hiccups Onyx does.

I would choose either one but definitely Caldera if you aim to use more than 2-3 printers with it. Then Caldera just handles it way better on a single PC.

 

[PixelImola]

To iPrintStuff, Solventinkjet, Unclebun, ColorCrest, balstestrat
Read with interest.
Thank you very much these comments and suggestions, they are greatly appreciated
I will follow this up later today.

 

[PixelImola]

To iPrintStuff, Solventinkjet, Unclebun, ColorCrest, balstestrat et.al.
Thank you for your participation and interesting comments, I am sorry for the delay but I was distracted yesterday with other studies.

iPrintStuff & Solventinkjet
Thank you for the elucidation, I was aware of Onyx, I had in fact mentioned it to the owner as an alternative RIP, apart from the other one which I had investigated which was Caldera. Both offer the possibility of managing several plotters, (of different brands) and both are dedicated RIP SW and pretend to offer more and better options than other proprietary RIPs. It is interesting for us to read about your experiences above all when commenting with comparisons to others and in the case of Mimaki, Rasterlink
In this Forum alone contrasting opinions regarding the advantages and ease of use of Onyx and Caldera, of course this is to be expected. Here is quite an interesting thread (May 2016) with observations in particular by Correct Color, WildWestDesigns which support my original approach for the owner of the firm.

Caldera vs. ONYX Thrive 211 | Signs101.com
https://signs101.com/threads/caldera-vs-onyx-thrive-211.132417/

If I am not mistaken there is a slight preference to Onyx among the members in this discussion, when compared to Caldera. I had proposed to the owner the trial version of Caldera first because it states that is fully supports MS, Mac and Linux and the firm here is primarily Mac oriented, even though we have 2 Windows PCs which are available for eventual RIPs which need Ms, such as the Versaworks Rip for the Roland XR-640 64”. There was also the fact that Caldera stated that there were no problems running it through a VM, which in our case for the test, might have some value; this option however may well be true for latest version of Onyx. Both SW seem to imply that, all things considered, a certain investment is necessary, well over $. 1.200 if one includes training and the learning curve, before one is proficient with the SW,,but as netsol suggests, the ROI may well be advantageous … perhaps even quite quickly, if one can employ all plotters and there is plenty of work to do.
I have to add a small correction to my notes here. The plotter which was traded in was an HP which had Onyx a the default RIP, perhaps a watered down or limited proprietary version, however I have been informed that the owner and our senior technician were not very satisfied with that version of this RIP.

Unclebun
… look at the vendors for the two in Italy and talk to them about what kind of support is available to you there …
In fact I had already contacted one of the vendors regarding a trial run which is as you state available. This has not yet been undertaken due to the upset with the plotter however I am hoping to initiate the process later this month.

... it is clear that there is not actually anything wrong with your printer ...
Let us not be too hasty; it seems that way for the moment only because it appears that the plotter can print a decent red using a profile which is probably not the most ideal or appropriate and not necessarily well adapted to the task but which has a balanced proportion of magenta.
That is not yet a description of an error free plotter nor a particularly promising condition.

... The problems you had were due to bad profiles which you downloaded to use with Rasterlink....
You mean :The problems you had appear to have been due above all to bad profiles,
which the Mimaki Authorised Technician(s) downloaded to use with Rasterlink …

the first during the installation and before the so-called 1 day course managed by Mimaki, our firm had not even started to use the plotter so the idea that the profiles of the new plotter depend on the new owner/Mimaki client is out of order.
The profiles which we selected (ie. recently downloaded from Mimaki, examined and then installed and used) actually permitted the rendering of acceptable prints, as stated earlier, at least as regards the problem of printing red, this also without notably skewing the other colours. This was well after the interventions of the Mimaki technicians.

… think of how much money you have lost trying to solve the printing problems the free bundled software was causing …
Very true, in fact, I am of the opinion that the owner has been wronged, this due to the lack of service and competency of the Mimaki Authorised Dealer (2 Technicians and the Senior Technical Manager) to solve the problem swiftly during the period of the upset, and that this would merit an indemnity. Should one criticise the purchaser here for trusting the dealer to be what they claimed to be: Experts in Mìmaki pProducts; which implies, does it not, the presence of technicians capable of installing a plotter correctly and the intention to assure that the client is happy with the installation and able and ready to start work ... as by contract, however I am perhaps naïf and old fashioned.

Although my first printer was a Mimaki that came with Rasterlink, the vendor I purchased it from strongly recommended against Rasterlink …
Thank you for this poignant supplement.

ColorCrest
... the choice of profiles is the responsibility of the operator(s) ...
Operator ? Do you mean the owner or the authorised Mimaki technician and installer of the machine and profile?
If the former then one is inclined to agree - with the clause : but only after the plotter (or any similar component for Graphical Work) has been 'correctly' installed to the clients satisfaction.
You do not dump a new professional plotter in the studio of a new client who purchased the new machine and go away leaving the client in such a condition. (see above)

The objective here, as far as trouble shooting, is to eliminate variables ….
Agreed, an approach which I believe is being undertaken at present. We would still be interested to know your opinion as to why there are these profiles (v. low Magenta) on the Mimaki site.

I recommend finding where the process failed so it's not repeated.
Which is why I stated that although progress has been made I consider the current condition still unresolved since I believe that there are other aspects of this condition which are still unanswered and may have a bearing on the complete solution.

balstestrat
Thank you for the note regarding the number of plotters, (ie. the size of the firm-business), I was wondering about this type of consideration. Due to the drastic drop in business here (ref Covid from February till now) in all sectors save masks and gel, it is understandable that further investments after an initial and substantial purchase need to evaluated with care. Depending on the duration of the sag in business one could argue that, from an optimistic point of view, this could be a good moment to invest in learning, testing of new techniques, technology, services and so forth, however one needs a notable dose of optimism and the trust that within a few weeks, months business is back to full pace and the studio is running at full regime. Based on past experience I suspect that one would need at least six months to become proficient with either of the aforementioned RIPs, free evenings are infrequent and few can stop their business to dedicate themselves to studying a new SW.

Certainly thanks to this professional Forum some progress is being made, I look forward to hearing any other opinions.
Concluding this response and please excuse what may appear to be a dumb question, but can anybody suggest why Mimaki has left those profiles which such a low proportion of Magenta ?
BTW, regarding the OP, did anybody happen to have an idea/answer to the question about the remote access to the Plotter. (via Browser - web interface etc,), an option which apparently should exist, and has been seen to be present on another similar plotter.

I thank you all for your interesting notes-

 

[balstestrat]

Based on past experience I suspect that one would need at least six months to become proficient with either of the aforementioned RIPs

Anyone who knows how to use tech and any other RIP should not take longer than maximum few weeks to use the RIP efficiently. Color management and such more deep stuff is a different case but basic everyday usage is so similar in all of them that it can't take more than that.

I may be young but jeez, it's like driving a different car. Same gears, feels different but you get used to it fast.

 

[unclebun]

PixelMolla,

As far as my language in saying "you downloaded", please understand my goal is to use fewer words. I am not assigning blame. Whether it was a technician or your employee who downloaded the bad profiles doesn't matter. The fact is they were downloaded and they were the problem you have been struggling with, not the machine. Who downloaded them is not germane.

I understand you are now leary of the printer, having had such a difficult time getting satisfactory results with it. But this has been the problem of the profiles, not the printer. The proof is in the good result you have obtained by simply downloading and using a different profile. Why the Mimaki tech used a bad profile and didn't even think to try a different one is beyond me. Why there are bad profiles available to download is also beyond me, but most manufacturers actually solicit profiles from their customers, media manufacturers, and RIP Partners and make these available for download. They don't test them and don't validate them and they don't create them. Frankly the first thing that should have been done when print results didn't make sense was just to try a different profile, as that costs nothing and takes only a few minutes.

As to what RIP your company should use, I don't think you can really research and find a satisfactory answer. Unfortunate, but true. There are very few unbiased operators in the world who have actually used the current versions of all RIPs and become experienced with all of them upon whom you can rely. Maybe zero. Most people have used at most one or two RIPs ever. And not at the same time. So at best they can compare the current version of whatever they are using with an old version of something they had used previously.

You could just use Rasterlink with better profiles, and you will be able to make prints. But Rasterlink is a bundled software, just as the version of Onyx that came with your previous HP printer was a bundled version. My current Epson printer came with a bundled version of Onyx. But it is far inferior to the version I have purchased and use. The versions bundled with printers, regardless of which company made them, are greatly watered down from the retail versions. Features and functionality are removed before they are made into bundled versions. The bundled version of Onyx cannot make new ICC profiles. Rasterlink can't either. The retail version of Onyx has innumerable profiles available for download from Onyx for a myriad of machines new and old, and many, many media. The bundled version has very few. The print-to-cut functions of bundled RIPs is more difficult to use and has far fewer features. In the case of my Epson, the bundled software cannot even make full use of the special ink colors (white and silver) that are a primary feature of the printer.

In summary, I believe you will be happier using a full RIP, rather than a bundled one, and as long as it is a full featured, competent RIP, it will serve you well. Your operators can learn how to deal with the quirks and limitations of the RIP and develop efficient workflow no matter which one you pick.

As to setting up the printer, although when I got my Mimaki JV3 many years ago (my first large format printer), I had the seller come set it up and train me, when it died and I bought my Epson as an emergency purchase, because it was a brand new model, the seller was booked two weeks out for set up and training. So I just had them ship me the machine, and set it up and got it running by myself. It's not exactly rocket science. I was producing signs the next day after I received it.

Your operators and managers SHOULD have enough knowledge of what a RIP does and how it works to be able to read manuals, use manufacturer online tech support, and their own heads to solve problems. And what they don't know or can't figure out, we'll be glad to try to help with so you can get on with your business once they release you from shutdown.

 

[PixelImola]

Anyone who knows how to use tech and any other RIP should not take longer than maximum few weeks to use the RIP efficiently. Color management and such more deep stuff is a different case but basic everyday usage is so similar in all of them that it can't take more than that.
I may be young but jeez, it's like driving a different car. Same gears, feels different but you get used to it fast.

I beg your pardon perhaps I did not explain clearly.
If you can master it quickly good for you, I was merely referring to a problem that can often occur in businesses where in spite of ones desire to make progress, one cannot proceed as desired, ie work steadily, constantly with a given study, of course if one sits eight hours a day before the plotter with the new RIP manual in hand then one should be able to master the basics and perhaps more within weeks
Please note that I am not the person responsible for the prints and although I understand your allusion to cars I find it difficult to agree completely when one is discussing a SW in which one may have to manage numerous variables, parameters, sometimes different interfaces and interpretations of the work flow. That is all there is to it. Thank you.

 

[ColorCrest]

ColorCrest
... the choice of profiles is the responsibility of the operator(s) ...
Operator ? Do you mean the owner or the authorised Mimaki technician and installer of the machine and profile?
If the former then one is inclined to agree - with the clause : but only after the plotter (or any similar component for Graphical Work) has been 'correctly' installed to the clients satisfaction.

It appears you've been assigned a task that places you in a difficult position. Let's start here...

Can you work with a single prepress / designer person and a single machine operator in oder to begin eliminating variables?

Ask the prepress / designer person what design software and working color spaces they use for the print files and what modes, RGB, CMYK, or both? Ask them to tell you what values make "gray" color. Ask them to tell you the opposite color of "red."

Ask the machine operator if they can be sure to make a print using "no color management" from the machine. Ask them to show you a printer's or photographer's gray scale.

 

[PixelImola]

To unclebun:
Thank you very much for this detailed and impartial report. To quote a few points-

but most manufacturers actually solicit profiles from their customers, media manufacturers, and RIP Partners and make these available for download

I had noticed this, in fact on the Mimaki site there are profiles which are classified as Fully Tested and Profiled, Not Tested yet, Certified; however from what little I have seen it was not immediately clear as to the efficacy of the profiles belonging to the various classifications for the end user (Graphic Studio-Printer), No doubt testing tells.

first thing that should have been done when print results didn't make sense was just to try a different profile

Certainly however unfortunately I was not present at the time.

a bundled version of Onyx. But it is far inferior to the version I have purchased and use.

... which seems to confirm my suspicion, howver this may be another reason to retry Onyx, this time with the full versions

Your operators and managers SHOULD have enough knowledge ....

Of course, but according to the contract, upon delivery the plotter was to be installed by the accompanying technician whose firm was to be handsomely paid for this service. Our people, admittedly, stood back and expected (trusted ?) that this was being done ... by an expert.
Thank you again for the courtesy and care in your follow up.

 

[PixelImola]

Hello ColorCrest,
Than you for returning and offering a comment.
I tried to PM you the files you suggested (Input Output Files) but unfortunately I encountered two errors.
1. with a small zip fil 9 MB an upload file size error and 2. an error, something about unable to send.
Please let me know how I can forward the files to you, if your kind offer is still valid.

Regarding your recent post.
Can you work with a single prepress / designer person and a single machine operator in oder to begin eliminating variables?
Yes, I should be able to do so by this Friday or within the next Tuesday.
Ask the prepress / designer person ... Ask them to tell you what values make "gray" color. Ask them to tell you the opposite color of "red."
OK, here you say gray color ? how gray ? the shade ?
Ask the machine operator if they can be sure to make a print using "no color management" from the machine.
OK
Ask them to show you a printer's or photographer's gray scale.
Here you say 'a' printers, do you mean their Mimaki plotter ?

Thank you, as soon as I have the results I will send them to you.
Best wishes.

 

[ColorCrest]

Please let me know how I can forward the files to you, if your kind offer is still valid.

No worries, we're forging ahead with different profiles at this point.

Regarding your recent post.

(Questions for your team.) Since we're fact-finding to eliminate so many variables, it's best to ask the question as I posed them for now.

 

[PixelImola]

Hello Colorcrest,

I do regret and apologise for the delay in corresponding but, after visiting the studio (Tuesday) and passing some time with the responsible in charge of the plotters, I had to investigate a question pertaining to a related theme and then I was also distracted by other work.
Regarding your questions to pose to the technician.
As suggested earlier the questions on the colours, gray and red, appear to be somewhat ambiguous if posed in this way, in fact the technician who can read English was not sure what you really asking and I could not help with a better translation since it was not clear to me. He commented that the gray colour in RGB is usually defined as having three equal vectors eg: (128, 128, 128) and by virtue of the conversion formula so also in CMYK. (0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5) ca. [0,498039216]. The plotter prints gray quite nicely, printing tests with cars, metallic gray also comes out nicely. The test charts with numerous shades of gray are well printed and one can distinguish each shade block.
Regarding the question for red he commented that this depends on the sense of opposite, (inverse, negative etc), the answer could also well depend on the colour space being considered but the typical answer, when considering the location in the RYB Colour Wheel, would be green, (whereas CMYK offers a different view, rendering the opposite as Cyan. We are still unsure as to the sense of your question.
On the "no color management" from the machine he told me that he had tested this with a default minimal configuration, which did not offer a decent red. A test printing directly to the plotter, which we have done in the past with other plotters, in order to bypass the RIP, was attempted but I was absent at the time.
Did we miss an option here in Rasterlink ?
I did mention your interesting suggestion in
https://signs101.com/threads/mimaki-jv300-banner-profile.145999/
regarding the feature in Rasterlink where one can compare several profiles head-to-head and then choose the best match, however he had already done this numerous times.
We are currently looking for a way to use a profile which appears valid and generate the related profiles in the other resolutions available We tried this using Mimaki Profile Master (trial) but the first attempt did really succeed, the colours were faded at lower resolutions. We will be trying the Onyx and Caldera RIPs around the end of the month.

Thank you for the help and suggestions.

PS: I would like to add that the idea of opposite remains undefined and, in particular in relation to what is normally considered a primary colour..
Did you mean complementary, could you explain your approach ?

erratum corrige. G changed to Y in the second mention of RGB.

 

[ColorCrest]

I do regret and apologise for the delay in corresponding

No worries.

He commented that the gray colour in RGB is usually defined as having three equal vectors eg: (128, 128, 128)

You’re technician understands correctly and it's good to learn your machine is printing neutral grays as it should.

Regarding the question for red he commented that this depends on the sense of opposite, (inverse, negative etc), the answer could also well depend on the colour space being considered but the typical answer, when considering the location in the RYB Colour Wheel, would be green, (whereas CMYK offers a different view, rendering the opposite as Cyan. We are still unsure as to the sense of your question.

The printing imaging relies on the RGB color model as opposed to the RYB model which artists might use to mix their paints. Therefore, the opposite of red is cyan. This understanding is crucial. I noticed in some of your posted red swatches that cyan was used in the mix. The cyan factor only contaminated the color to its detriment.

(More later, time permitting.)

 

[PixelImola]

ColorCrest, Thank you for the follow-up.
In reference to cyan and your comment on RGB, the lack of a mention to RGB was my fault, I must apologize to our technician, in the haste to post I inadvertently failed to add after the RYB, RGB to CMYK ie: (whereas RGB, CMYK offers a different view, rendering the opposite as Cyan). We mentioned RYB merely as an example of a different colour space, one could also consider CIELAB etc.
Some might prefer the term Colour Model or System rather than Space.

I noticed in some of your posted red swatches that cyan was used in the mix. The cyan factor only contaminated the color to its detriment.
We look forward to hearing your comments, thank you again for your time and consideration.

 

[micadesign]

good morning to all.

i bought last month a ucjv300-160 with the follow ink setup: cmyk+w+cl and got the same problem. poor red and blacks...
try to tune color in rasterlink, cause ink limit to the magenta is very low compared with the other colors.

use a jv300-160 with rasterlink too and without trouble.

any ideas about new profiles?