Need a crash course on electrical signage

[imajenn]

I'm a designer new to the electrical signage world. I’m hoping the veterans here can give me a crash course and answer some questions below:

D/F Front-lit Blade signs:

1. What’s the minimum depth for a d/f front-lit blade sign?
2. How do I know which sq tube size to use for the mounting brackets? And how do I determine the size of the mounting plates? 1 versus 2 plates - or is this all for looks?
3. What gauge of aluminum is typically use for routed-out face w/ push-thru?

Sign Cabinet:

1. How do I know what size retainers to use? Is there a general rule on height/length of the polycarb face and retainer size requirements?
2. What's the minimum depth of a typical sign cabinet? Does it need to get thicker as the size increases?

That's it for now....thank you!

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Your blade sign needs to be engineered to get those mounting answers. for the faces.. 063 or 080, I can't remember off the top of my head.

4" is about the minimum on bigger wall cabinets. You don't need thicker depth as cabinet grows, just enough to keep the LEDs from looking hot. I've done 3" on channel letters before and they didn't have hot spots. Retainers are 1.5"-2" for polycarb. Once you get over 5x10 or 4x12 you need to start thinking about a flexface.

Those are direct answers to your questions... but you really should have a fabricator who is familiar with making these tell you what to do.

 

[Johnny Best]

Adendo is a service you should get all your questions answers. They are members on here.

 

[imajenn]

Adendo is a service you should get all your questions answers. They are members on here.

Thank you so much! I will look into this!

 

[imajenn]

Your blade sign needs to be engineered to get those mounting answers. for the faces.. 063 or 080, I can't remember off the top of my head.

4" is about the minimum on bigger wall cabinets. You don't need thicker depth as cabinet grows, just enough to keep the LEDs from looking hot. I've done 3" on channel letters before and they didn't have hot spots. Retainers are 1.5"-2" for polycarb. Once you get over 5x10 or 4x12 you need to start thinking about a flexface.

Those are direct answers to your questions... but you really should have a fabricator who is familiar with making these tell you what to do.

Thank you!!!

 

[Scotchbrite]

I'm a designer new to the electrical signage world. I’m hoping the veterans here can give me a crash course and answer some questions below:

D/F Front-lit Blade signs:
View attachment 159862
1. What’s the minimum depth for a d/f front-lit blade sign?

This is usually dictated by the lighting source. It was a little more straight forward when most box shaped signs were illuminated with fluorescent lamps. The general rules was a minimum 12" deep with fluorescents running down the middle on 12" spacing. Now there are a bunch of different LED modules with various light spreads. I usually have a preferred module and build the sign to fit.

2. How do I know which sq tube size to use for the mounting brackets? And how do I determine the size of the mounting plates? 1 versus 2 plates - or is this all for looks?

Like Texas_Signmaker said, engineering. Or decades of experience.

3. What gauge of aluminum is typically use for routed-out face w/ push-thru?

We generally use 1/8" thick. If it was a small sign, like 4x4 or smaller, I would consider 0.1" or even .080". We use a stud welder to hold the acrylic to the aluminum and you'll see puckers if the face is less than 1/8" thick.

Sign Cabinet:
View attachment 159863
1. How do I know what size retainers to use? Is there a general rule on height/length of the polycarb face and retainer size requirements?

Most all of our box signs are built with extrusion kits. The different extrusions use different size retainers. Generally speaking, the single sided frames use 1.5" retainers and double sided frames use 2". I think there's also one that is 2.5". This would give you some idea of the options: https://www.abcsignproducts.com/extrusion/Type-II-III-IV-EZ-ThrifT

One big factor with the size of polycarb faces is future service needs. If the face needs to be slid out for access (as opposed to perimeter access), you really want to keep the size down. Generally if a sign is going to be much over 50 sq-ft, we look to use flexface material. This gives you a perimeter access frame for service as well has superior blowout protection. Sometimes we will use an embossed pan face if its going to be a rigid face and large size. The embossed pan also helps prevent blowout.

2. What's the minimum depth of a typical sign cabinet? Does it need to get thicker as the size increases?

See first answer above. To add to that; if it's a single-sided sign, the general rule of thumb was 8" deep for fluorescent lamps on 12" centers. Really there are a lot of things you can do that will effect how deep the sign can be. It all boils down to how a particular shop likes to build their signs and/or if they are using common extrusions.

 

[Gino]

You're asking questions you shouldn't be playing with. You need to know codes and restrictions for the municipalities you'll be working in, as most of the time, they change from city to city or county to county. Distance of lamps or LEDs to faces is one thing, but engineer questions you do not learn in a 'crash course' on a forum full of knuckleheads who are only guessing at best.

Why would a designer be needing installation and spec information ?? Usually you've been doing this kinda stuff and you fall into it.

Anyway, good luck.

 

[brdesign]

If you are that new to electrical signs, I'm assuming that you are having the signs built by another company specializing in manufacturing them. Send them a basic drawing of what you would like the sign to look like and let them review and make the structural drawings. Most likely they will have an engineer review the drawing and make suggestions for any changes on the specs for the sign. It's really nice when you work with the same vender on a regular basis and can just email their designers and get some preliminary feedback before putting a bunch of design time into a design that will not work.

 

[rjssigns]

To the OP, make sure you have good insurance. Stuff hanging off buildings plus electricity is no joke. Like Gino said tons of codes, regulations etc... and they will change from town to town.

 

[Scotchbrite]

It's not that uncommon to receive a design and then I have to put all of the specs on it to meet the fabrication realities. It is good to have some basic understanding of electrical signs, but you may not need to get that detailed. You might spec 1-1/2" retainers, and the fabricator will come back and say they have to use 2" instead. Heck these days, it might come down to a product availability issue.

 

[Scotchbrite]

I'll argue against this. Nobody picks the LED's then builds the sign around that, do they?

I meant LED vs fluorescent vs neon vs whatever other light source might be used.

 

[Scotchbrite]

True, I don't remember the last fluorescent cabinet we built. But it's so ingrained I still think of box sign sizes in terms of nominal lamp sizes.

And don't get me started on the cost of proper disposal!

Don't have dumpster service anyway?

 

[Gino]

You can't throw lamps and ballasts into a dumpster. The metal, ya scrap anyway.

 

[Johnny Best]

We use to use a company that gave us a 55gal container that you put the lamps in and it would crush them up. you could put at least #100 (I never counted) in there and when it filled they picked it up. Kind of like a paper shredder. I forgot the name of the company so do not bother asking, it has been awhile. It always pissed me off to slide back the faces of a cabinet and find a slew of used light tubes stacked up in there. But after being on here and now I understand how it happened.

 

[Scotchbrite]

They now eye all our trash for lamps, residential lamp disposal is free, but for business, disposing at the local dump is like $15 each. I've been trying to convince everybody to take a few home every week and run to the dump on Saturday, no takers yet.

Luckily they haven't been concerned about that here yet. We've been waiting for it and we were looking at the drum type thing Johnny Best mentioned.

We're also not going thru fluorescent lamps like we use to either.

We use to use a company that gave us a 55gal container that you put the lamps in and it would crush them up. you could put at least #100 (I never counted) in there and when it filled they picked it up. Kind of like a paper shredder. I forgot the name of the company so do not bother asking, it has been awhile. It always pissed me off to slide back the faces of a cabinet and find a slew of used light tubes stacked up in there. But after being on here and now I understand how it happened.

I don't think I've ever seen whole lamps in the bottom off signs, but lots of cabinets full of busted up lamps in the bottom. My favorite was finding neon units and/or fluorescent lamps just tossed up on the building roof.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

My favorite was finding neon units and/or fluorescent lamps just tossed up on the building roof.

Isn't that where all the trash goes?

When working in a ceiling, you just leave your trash there so it's like a time-capsule when future generations work up there.

 

[Gino]

Just gives the squirrels and mice stuff to gnaw on in the wintertime.

 

[Scotchbrite]

We looked at buying or leasing one of them, but I think some regulations said we would need a hazmat license to dispose of the lamps with the grinder, and that just putting them in special boxes for a special delivery company to pick up was the path with the least red tape.

That's interesting. Since it's not something that's being required here yet, we couldn't do much research into what it would take. Without the need, no one is offering the service.

I was at a local sign association gathering several years ago, and a guy from Yesco was talking about all the trouble they had with neon disposal in Las Vegas. The company they hired to dispose of it didn't do things properly and Yesco was left holding the bag for it because they were the originator of the waste. It cost them lots of money to take care of that issue.

 

[garyroy]

When I see "Crash Course" and "Electric" in the same sentence, that scares me.

 

[Gino]

More like a "Shocking Course".