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Need Help need help engineering concrete needed for sign installation

brian oliver

brian oliver

head cheese
I'm quoting on a sign that will be pole-mounted. Overall square footage is roughly 15 sq. ft. and highest point above grade is roughly 6 feet. I'm figuring a 4" pipe will be fine but how much concrete will I need to properly anchor? Soil has high clay content and I will go down approx. 42" to get below frost line.
Is there a website that will help me calculate the concrete needed? Or do you have a number for me?
Thanks.
 
brian oliver

brian oliver

head cheese
Thanks for the replies. As it turns out, I talked to someone at the county office and he informed me that I am required to have a licensed engineer design and stamp the support, so...
It seems like nuclear overkill to me for such a small and inconsequential sign but as they say: "You can't fight City Hall".
 
Rick

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
What if the sign was less than 6' high?
 
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Zendavor Signs

Zendavor Signs

Mmmmm....signs
Use YJ Inc or Sullaway, firms that specialize in sign design. It is typically a couple hundred dollars or so, not too bad.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
We're in the middle of one right now. 3'×8'×12" depth, double-sided with 5" square steel tube on a saddle cradle. Direct burial, no flange. Hole will be 2'×4'×4.5 deep with rebar throughout. That's from the engineer. Top of sign is 6' outta the ground. I said, how far do you think the wind will take this in a frickin hurricane ?? Itll basically just blow over. It wont ever go anywhere. Engineer said, it's my job. :doh:
 
mfatty500

mfatty500

New Member
Call your Ready-Mix Supplier and have them figure it out for you, they'll be glad to, sorry don't have my slide rule handy
 
ams

ams

New Member
Really they need a stamp? Around here they don't care. But look up the Wind and Snow load for your area, that will help determine the footer you need. Calculating concrete is pretty easy. Overkill is better than not enough. If you send me the specs on it I can tell you what to make it.
 
Billct2

Billct2

Active Member
There are towns around here that now require a stamp to screw a 1'x8' panel to a wall. Used to be the town engineer would look at the plans and either approve or recommend (ordet) a change. I think they are just covering their butts, but why have a town engineer at all?
 
Rick

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
To the OP, there are some people you should not be taking advice from... I would call YJ

Should be obvious why cities have engineers - we get big winds here and all hell breaks loose with signs flying away and walls falling... since the majority of sign people seem to only be printing stickers, thank goodness for engineers and codes...

I'm pretty sure if that sign was 5'-11" it would not require wet stamped engineering, and with a freeze line that deep, you would not require a large footing...
 
R

Rocco G

New Member
Get a copy of Sign Structures and Foundations from signs of the times. IIRC they have a newer book with more complicated formulas if that one is out of print. Then make up a spreadsheet to figure it each time. It's not rocket science, even though engineers will act like it is. It's simple algebra to get a "close enough" answer so you can price the job. Now, the figures you come up with will be adequate for estimating but you will still need to get things stamped by an engineer in order to get a permit approved depending on your state regs. I once (in NJ) needed sealed plans for a set of styrofoam letters glued to a wall inside a store. Since it could be seen from outside the store (you had to catch it just from the right angle through the glass) the town insisted we get a permit and sealed plans. Yes, that really happened and was IMO a money grab by the township. Sort of like that same town requiring a ZONING permit for signs inside their mall.

Also, and again IMHO, the reason that most towns now require sealed plans is so they can play CYA. If they didn't approve it, they are not liable. In any case if there is a problem, it's the sign company that will eventually get the blame.

Anyway, based on a 3x5 DF sign, 6' OAH I came up with 0.345 cubic yards (48" deep footing assumed) based on a 115 MHP wind load when using my spreadsheet. Go to up a half a yard to be safe. And make sure you quote it with a disclaimer in case your engineer wants more concrete. Also, a 4" round pipe with a 1/4": wall should be more than enough.
 
Billct2

Billct2

Active Member
"Should be obvious why cities have engineers - we get big winds here and all hell breaks loose with signs flying away and walls falling... since the majority of sign people seem to only be printing stickers, thank goodness for engineers and codes...
My point was the city engineers don't actually do any engineering, they require an outside company certify the plans. There was a time when the city would look at plans and approve or make modifications based on their engineering expertise that they are getting paid for. Now they want a stamp on a little wall sign.
 
Rick

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Billct2 said:
"Should be obvious why cities have engineers - we get big winds here and all hell breaks loose with signs flying away and walls falling... since the majority of sign people seem to only be printing stickers, thank goodness for engineers and codes...
My point was the city engineers don't actually do any engineering, they require an outside company certify the plans. There was a time when the city would look at plans and approve or make modifications based on their engineering expertise that they are getting paid for. Now they want a stamp on a little wall sign.
Click to expand...

My experience is that they do actual engineering - I've worked on more than a few city/county and state wayfinding where they did the engineering and coordinated the construction. It was always my understanding that they they check calculations and in cases where signs are really large, they reject some attachments as was the case on a large billboard project I was involved in. I think some of it is overkill - but you know as well as I do, there are quite a few clowns who will glue a panel up that should have been pin-mounted or bolted in place... that is why we have to jump through all these hoops. Currently I have been adding engineered plot plans for basic signs for a large municipality... still shake my head over that.
EDIT: I just did a doozy of a street closure submittal where I had to sift through engineered drawings or sign and cone placement, had to be in scale, had to add a schedule of events in the downtown area... went back and forth 5 times as they added more and more to it.
 
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Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I just received word, 2 days ago, on a sign we're doing, the customer needs one more drawing. He has the codes from the borough hall, he has a stamped engineer drawing, our elevation drawing, our site drawing and now they just informed him, he needs to have his property surveyed and stamped as to where the sign will be placed. The codes already say back 28' from this street and back 26' from the side street. How frickin' hard is that to do ?? Measure it off and put a stick in the ground. Nope, he hasta have a surveying company out to do this.

:frustrated:​
 
JTBoh

JTBoh

I sell signage and signage accessories.
Some of the wind load requirements down here in FL are insane... for a 40' pylon, you're probably gonna go 9' down within 20 miles of the coast.

Even smaller signs require 3000psi, small rock, 3' x 3' x 6', etc... like, the sign is gonna fly away and end up 2 counties over before that sucker is coming outta the ground.

PS - whats a "frost line" ;)
 
E

equippaint

Active Member
JTBoh said:
Some of the wind load requirements down here in FL are insane... for a 40' pylon, you're probably gonna go 9' down within 20 miles of the coast.

Even smaller signs require 3000psi, small rock, 3' x 3' x 6', etc... like, the sign is gonna fly away and end up 2 counties over before that sucker is coming outta the ground.

PS - whats a "frost line" ;)
Click to expand...
Sorry have to rant. Florida is so overboard on building codes. You cant even change out your front door without a permit. What started as good intentions has turned into a gigantic beaurocracy with more and more rules for these guys to justify their jobs. And how on earth did the fire department turn into another arm of the building department? They have to approve EVERYTHING and force hundreds of thousands of dollars in extra stuff to prevent something so rare, im more likely to get struck by lightening than die at my shop in a fire. Wait til the police get involved and start requiring $50k in anti theft alarms on commercial buildings. It will come. Sorry rant over
 
JTBoh

JTBoh

I sell signage and signage accessories.
equippaint said:
Sorry rant over
Click to expand...

Lake county just changed all building permits to 3 months, from 6.
We had 2 jobs go over - large monument projects, and had to buy an extension.

Since the hurricane, local engineering firms are stressed, fabricators are stressed - we had to dump our local guy because 1 month on engineering was too long. Fab shops are running 6-8 weeks on monuments - it wasn't giving us enough time. I have letters out to business development but I doubt it'll make a difference.
 
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