'Need your input regarding 3M wrap combo

[Patentagosse]

I'm a long-term Oracal user but recently I wrapped a car with their so-called "low initial tack" 3751 and it turned into a +20 hours nightmare. I'd like to give 3M a chance to get more business from me but after I revised their quote, I'm asking myself: "can I really afford this?" They propose to send me a 10yds roll combo (IJ180CV3 + 8518) to test so as far as material properties and printability, I'll see / test by myself (I own a Roland VS-540 with OEM inks) but for the pricing, it just seems out-of-reach, I mean way more than I pay actually for wrap material.

Let me know what you think of that (I'm in Canada BTW...)

IJ180CV3 + 8518 ...$1320
IJ40C-10R + 8508 ...$710 (which I know is intended for flat panel)
IJ380CV3 + 8580 ...$1415
IJ480CV3 + 8548G ...$1655

 

[WrapZone]

If you have access to it I strongly recommend Hexis HX200 series and their 750 laminate as a substitute for 3751.

Works great at a great price.

 

[SignManiac]

I just paid $1052 for the IJ180CV3 + 8518 combo package. 54" x 50 yd here in Florida

 

[Asuma01]

We use IJ180CV3 for all our vehicle wraps. Our install guys like it the best and the prints look great.

 

[Patentagosse]

I just paid $1052 for the IJ180CV3 + 8518 combo package. 54" x 50 yd here in Florida

That what I pay usually for a combo (Oracal). Around here, I can even found Avery's MPI1005 EZ RS + DOL 1060/1360/1460 under $900... That's why the prices seems so crazy to me...

'Swear the God I'll cut my install time by 50% and it'll pay by itself but otherwise, it's burning money, doesn't it?

 

[Patentagosse]

We use IJ180CV3 for all our vehicle wraps. Our install guys like it the best and the prints look great.

I'm sure it's a great material and also know for sure it prints well because I already bought 3M IJ180 in the past while I used to print from my SP300 (30"). But does it worth paying almost 40% more?

 

[mudmedia]

If you have access to it I strongly recommend Hexis HX200 series and their 750 laminate as a substitute for 3751.

Works great at a great price.

I have never tried Hexis printable material. Anyone that does wraps have any luck with the material compared to lets say MMM or Avery?

 

[AceSignsOnline]

Until recently, we've always used the IJ180Cv3/8518 Combo. It installs great and I feel that it's the industry standard for good reason. But we switched over to Oracal's 3951 wrap vinyl and Oraguard 290 laminate. Our Mutoh seems to like the Oracal product better because we get exceptional print quality whereas with the IJ180, it was average at best. Your mileage may vary, but until we buy another printer for wrap materials, we will be sticking with the 3951.

 

[Patentagosse]

Ace, at my shop I print 3M and Oracal side-by-side with same exact results on my Roland printer. They both print great but what I hate about 3951 it's the adhesive's initial tack. I know they changed the "pattern" recently which may help a li'l but the previous batches in past years were harder to work around tricky corners. That being said, I trust these 2 brands, they never let me down (until last job with 3751). It was sticky as hell like if solvent had migrated into adhesive, turning a "regular" job into very challenging, vinyl ripping off, major static issues...

 

[mudmedia]

Until recently, we've always used the IJ180Cv3/8518 Combo. It installs great and I feel that it's the industry standard for good reason. But we switched over to Oracal's 3951 wrap vinyl and Oraguard 290 laminate. Our Mutoh seems to like the Oracal product better because we get exceptional print quality whereas with the IJ180, it was average at best. Your mileage may vary, but until we buy another printer for wrap materials, we will be sticking with the 3951.

If he thought the 3751 had to much initial tack..He will hate the 3951

 

[the graphics co]

You should give the avery 1005 sc ez/1460 or 1360 laminate a try. The stuff is great to work with and the price is very competitive as well. try a sample, what would it hurt.

 

[Patentagosse]

I've worked for years with 3951... this particular roll of 3751RA gave me hard times. I don't know what I did wrong (printing? drying?...) but trust me, many folks would have canceled the job and refund the client or re-printed the whole job to avoid wasting countless hours to lay it down properly.

I have just enough experience to admit I print stuff for other shops around for years... prints always dry in open air for minimum 24 hours prior to laminate step.

Can't figure where I failed this time... Oracal got a clip of the "fight" but haven't requested leftover parts for investigation (...) My contact has transfered the pics / clip to R&D for claims / expertises.

 

[Patentagosse]

I had, 2 years ago on a Sprinter. I failed miserably trying to have it stay in place in deep recessed corner in the back. 'Had to perform a relief cut first and had printed a "patch" to cover the gap. While it works great on moderate curves (damn I love the real low initial tack of this stuff). It's probably just my fault, althrought I did the same steps I do usually with other brands... see what I mean...

I can get an Avery combo for a li'l under $900 over here...

You should give the avery 1005 sc ez/1460 or 1360 laminate a try. The stuff is great to work with and the price is very competitive as well. try a sample, what would it hurt.

 

[WrapZone]

I have never tried Hexis printable material. Anyone that does wraps have any luck with the material compared to lets say MMM or Avery?

If you wnat the best hexis wrap vinyl ou should go with HX100 works really well and I definetly think they hold the same standard as 3M, I have no experience with avery som can't comment on that. Hexis also coming out with HX150 soon that we had the oportunity to try before release and that works even better.

What I like with hexis vs Orafol and many other print vinyls (if you ask me the Orafol/Oracal quality is just getting worse and worse) is that it is not affected as bad if you print with a lot of color and blacks on a solvent printer.

We used to use oracal all the time but they have had so many quality problems and have cost us a LOT of money in jobs we had to redo due to faulty materials. And Oracal have terrible customer care in Europe compared to Hexis

Attached is a few jobs we have done with HX100

 

[AceSignsOnline]

Ace, at my shop I print 3M and Oracal side-by-side with same exact results on my Roland printer. They both print great but what I hate about 3951 it's the adhesive's initial tack. I know they changed the "pattern" recently which may help a li'l but the previous batches in past years were harder to work around tricky corners. That being said, I trust these 2 brands, they never let me down (until last job with 3751). It was sticky as hell like if solvent had migrated into adhesive, turning a "regular" job into very challenging, vinyl ripping off, major static issues...

This is great info.

By no means will I claim to be an authority on wraps. While I am confident in my skills involving wrap jobs, I'm much more at home doing monuments, pylons, etc. So I value information given to me from guys with more experience than myself. That's why I love this forum.

Oh, and just out of curiosity, does your Roland use eco-solvents? It would be nice to know why I get such drastically different results with different medias.

 

[WrapZone]

Ace, at my shop I print 3M and Oracal side-by-side with same exact results on my Roland printer. They both print great but what I hate about 3951 it's the adhesive's initial tack. I know they changed the "pattern" recently which may help a li'l but the previous batches in past years were harder to work around tricky corners. That being said, I trust these 2 brands, they never let me down (until last job with 3751). It was sticky as hell like if solvent had migrated into adhesive, turning a "regular" job into very challenging, vinyl ripping off, major static issues...

The solvent going into the adhesive have been a huge problem with Orafol since they changed their production about a year and half ago, they deny it but their print vinyl have turned really crappy.

 

[rjssigns]

This will throw a wrench in the works. We do work for another shop and printed a partial on Arlons XRP6000/3220 combo. Their installer is in love with it. He stopped by to show me pics and rave about the material.
IMHO their laminate rocks. Best I've run so far and it has that "wet" look.

 

[Patentagosse]

In September, my local Avery supplier ran a special deal on wrap combo for $839 (that's quite a deal) !!!

Yeah, I've been told in the past to run a heatgun over laminate's surface to bring back the gloss to decent level but I have better things to do so to speak... my expectation is that a roll of laminate should be usable from start to finish with same quality / finish / gloss level. I hate wasting my precious time heating the last 15ft of my laminate to get rid of the matte spots...

I'm more into basic / partial wraps so to speak. I do cube trucks, cargo vans, big rigs and some large contourcut logos.

For the spot I'm working in, let say it's more "rural" than "big city". There's a lot of shops around and customers are shopping a lot.

I'll get the IJ180CV3/8518 combo in 10yds as offered by my supplier. I'll do my testings so if I don't like it, I won't support a big expense...

Man I'm surprised pricing would be that different from a couple of provinces away.

I'm at around $1100 for the first bundle you mentioned (I used to stick to 8519 but the finish is crap and even after having (2) different guys from 3M here, their only suggestion was to "try using a heat gun to get rid of the modeling"....gee thanks).

I'm also at around that same price ($1100) for the Avery combo. Funny that they differ around $200 each from each other between your pricing and mine.

Pricing aside, I didn't see you mention what your application is. Doing some flat wraps? Mostly basic/partial wraps? Complex vehicles like beetles, sprinters etc?

Just like anything else, having a selection works to your advantage. (although us paying way more up here sure doesn't)

If you had a bad experience with the Avery on the Sprinter, it's because (as far as I know) it's not designed for those channels. Those things are bastards and I've just started cutting and dropping them on one of my client's fleets. I seem to remember hearing that even the 380cv3 will want to lift and fail in those channels eventually.

So I wouldn't write the Avery off because of that experience, from what I've seen and heard it's a suitable replacement/substitute for IJ180cv3. Last time I used it, it was VERY forgiving to work with compared to IJ180 and 3951, which I find have way too much initial tack.

So to answer your question, from the combos you described, if you wanted to cover ALL the bases, you could stock the Avery, IJ180, and IJ380 so you could pick and choose the right time to use each one - then again that's a lot of inventory tied up which may or may not be ideal depending how many you're going through. I would also try to beat up your supplier a bit on those prices...I know you're in a bigger area/market than we are but those seem pretty inflated.

 

[Patentagosse]

This will throw a wrench in the works. We do work for another shop and printed a partial on Arlons XRP6000/3220 combo. Their installer is in love with it. He stopped by to show me pics and rave about the material.
IMHO their laminate rocks. Best I've run so far and it has that "wet" look.

In Canada, we have very limited access to Arlon (unfortunately). I know there's 2-3 distributors in our province but they never sent litterature / samples or a sales rep to introduce me to their lines. I'm pretty sure it's quality stuff but I won't run after 'em to get material... All other places selling other brands are visiting me on a regular base and drop samples / small rolls to let us try it.

 

[Patentagosse]

The solvent going into the adhesive have been a huge problem with Orafol since they changed their production about a year and half ago, they deny it but their print vinyl have turned really crappy.

Didn't know / realized it. I think you got a point. Issues match that period...

 

[BigfishDM]

I have had some great success with my 2Mil Cast Air Release by Ritrama where you get a 54"x75' of the 2 Mil Cast Lam and a 54"x75' of 2 Mil Cast Air Release Vinyl for $450