Permits for sign installation

[Zendavor Signs]

Our city will allow either the property owner or sign contractor to obtain a sign permit for an exterior sign. I have done a number of jobs both ways, just depends on the customer (some like to save money by obtaining the permits themselves). My question is, what happens if my customer tells me they have the permit, but don't actually. Can I be liable for costs of removing or moving the sign? I have a case where the permit costs will be rather high due to a "special use" permit needed. The customer is complaining about the cost of the permit. I'm nervous he will tell me he has a permit just so I get the job done.

 

[d fleming]

I don't pull the permit, I don't do the job. Period.

 

[fixtureman]

Have him show you the permit before you start

 

[TimToad]

I don't pull the permit, I don't do the job. Period.

You'd starve here. We have a competitor brazenly doing even electrical signs and channel letters without a license or permits. Actually brags about it in public. None of the electrical sign companies seem to care enough to even call the contractor's board.

 

[Billct2]

I have it in the contract if the client is responsible.

 

[Gino]

Have him show it to you in writing and make sure the date is good for the 30/60 days they are usually good for.

Goes like this..... you quote the job, he either accepts or rejects it. If he rejects it..... you're done. If he accepts it, you should already have a good feel if what he wants is permissible or not. Make sure when you get the signed and dated quote, along with the required deposit, you give him the elevation/site proposal drawings in due time to show the codes department. Once he shows you it's all been accepted and signed off on, then you begin. Not until. If he does anything behind your back, you should know it or not and stand your ground.

Make sure he knows all deposits are NONrefundable.

 

[visual800]

if Im doing an electrical sign or huge monument i pull permits or have them pulled. if Im hanging an awning or thowing a 4x8 on the side of a building I dont bother with permits. IMO jobs this small that take no time are pointless to get permits. interior sign we dont bother pulling permits on those either....so I have to ask what are you installing?

If its a large in your face sign and you get busted, just play ignornt, all teny will do is halt work and make you go get one. its not like prison time or anything.

 

[Andy D]

Can I be liable for costs of removing or moving the sign?

I might be talking out of my butt, I'm 90% sure city hall can't compel you to remove or move the sign, it's on the customer.
The customer would have to take you to court to sue for the cost of removing or moving the sign. Could be different from one area to another though...

 

[Rick]

Illinois is kinda quirky because you can register with
the county or city, if I remember right, there is not a
huge process like we have in California.

Are you a licensed sign contractor?

If you are pulling the permit, you do the work.
In some counties, the client isn't saving much if
they pull permits because they usually have to pay
the same amount to be licensed for that trade to do
the work.

If you are not sure the owner pulled permits, don't
do the job... you would be the responsible party and
you could get the fines if caught.

 

[Rebel Graphics]

in my town, I've seen guys putting up signs at 5am, so I assume they dont have any permits.

 

[Zendavor Signs]

We're not required to be a licensed contractor in this city, but do (and are) in surrounding communities. Every one of them is different. I like the idea of putting verbiage in the quote that customer is responsible for permit, if customer chooses to not let us get it.

The sign is a double sided 30x72 non-lit aluminum sign for an apartment complex. Because it is zoned residential, "special use" permit fee is $850 plus a 6 week process including 2 board meetings. Sometimes our laws are just so stupid. Thank you all for your help.

 

[visual800]

We're not required to be a licensed contractor in this city, but do (and are) in surrounding communities. Every one of them is different. I like the idea of putting verbiage in the quote that customer is responsible for permit, if customer chooses to not let us get it.

The sign is a double sided 30x72 non-lit aluminum sign for an apartment complex. Because it is zoned residential, "special use" permit fee is $850 plus a 6 week process including 2 board meetings. Sometimes our laws are just so stupid. Thank you all for your help.

this is why I skip the permits on non lit stuff. This is nothing but a waste of time and money. Damn You guys have high fees. This must going thru an architectural board

 

[d fleming]

You'd starve here. We have a competitor brazenly doing even electrical signs and channel letters without a license or permits. Actually brags about it in public. None of the electrical sign companies seem to care enough to even call the contractor's board.

No I wouldn't. I also would not put up with the jackleg you describe and have in fact closed several down. In my area you have to have an engineering stamp on plans and proof of licensing plus proper insurance or don't even bother going to zoning.Those of us that do it legal will not tolerate an illegal operation around us.The state surely doesn't. Also if you are the property owner and knowingly hire an unlicensed contractor you can go to jail with them.

 

[Jean Shimp]

We had a situation a few years ago where we were putting a new sign face on an existing monument. We did get a sign permit and did the job. The original structure was also permitted. About 6 months later one of the inspectors realized that the sign was offsite and therefore illegal. Even though the city gave us the permit, they said take down the monument! The owner refused to do it and the city said they were going to suspend our license if the sign didn't come down! Lawyers got involved on behalf of the property owner. Long story short the sign is still there and our license was never suspended. Since then I am very cautious about permitting signs. I rarely put one up without a permit. If the customer says they are getting the permit themselves I ask for the permit # before making the sign.

 

[shoresigns]

What about things like window graphics and sandwich boards? Most municipalities have restrictions on these, sometimes requiring permits, but in most areas it seems that no one follows the rules and there's no enforcement either.

 

[visual800]

What about things like window graphics and sandwich boards? Most municipalities have restrictions on these, sometimes requiring permits, but in most areas it seems that no one follows the rules and there's no enforcement either.

No. Window lettering, interior, hospital schools we dont bother with permitting stuff like that. I am not being a rulebreaker I just see no sense in it. IF we get permits in our town for stuff like this we just carry a detailed drawing and pay money. they dont go out and check or anything. Why waste my gas and time on insignificant installs like this

 

[Gino]

Well, why should this Friday be any different than most others ??



It's one thing to know the laws and obey them and it's another thing to know the laws and disobey them. Yet there are those who come here looking for answers and still the boneheads that cite the same garbage are still doing it with some newly added believers.

To perform almost any business outside, you need a permit, be it window dressing to electrical pylons to small hanging signs to welding a sign together in the air or changing out some neon at the mall. The permits are for various reasons.

1. To be sure you can do the work and do it properly, safely and according to code.
2. To be sure your work does not violate anyone else's rights on the same street or district.
3. To be sure you have adequate insurance.
4. To be sure if no one has proper insurance and a sign falls on someone, the municipality will not be sued by sue happy people.
5. To be sure, you are not taking advantage of some end-user.
6. To be sure, you are who/what you say you are.

So, someone who was lowballing all the other contractors was painting a front door without a permit [with or without proper insurance]. He/she stepped back to admire their work, kicked a can of paint over, it rolled down the steps out into the street and a car swerved to avoid hitting it, but took out a mother and her baby in a carriage...... who's to blame ?? Who knows ?? Well, it doesn't matter who is to blame, but if you had a permit to paint that door, you wouldn't be blamed in the lawsuit. You'll still be named, but you had permission to be there by the city. If the renters of that apartment had no insurance or the owner of the building, it will eventually fall back on the city and guess what..... all this sh!t adds up to higher taxes to cover all the hacks operating in town without frickin' permits.

Now, that's a very simplified example, but this stuff happens.

It's one thing to do this stuff without permits, but to go around telling people no one in your town does it cause it costs too much or ain't worth the hassle so go ahead and do it... is just downright irresponsible. Don't be giving bad advice to people to knowingly break laws and codes which they are questioning. They need the truth. Not some stupid reason you or your neighbors don't. Keep your dumb secrets to yourself and explain that perhaps you might get away with breaking the law, but it could come back to bite you. Some people are lucky and as noted in this thread..... some not so lucky.

 

[Moze]

So, someone who was lowballing all the other contractors was painting a front door without a permit [with or without proper insurance]. He/she stepped back to admire their work, kicked a can of paint over, it rolled down the steps out into the street and a car swerved to avoid hitting it, but took out a mother and her baby in a carriage...... who's to blame ?? Who knows ?? Well, it doesn't matter who is to blame, but if you had a permit to paint that door, you wouldn't be blamed in the lawsuit. You'll still be named, but you had permission to be there by the city. If the renters of that apartment had no insurance or the owner of the building, it will eventually fall back on the city and guess what..... all this sh!t adds up to higher taxes to cover all the hacks operating in town without frickin' permits.

I'm pretty sure if an installer 'kicks over a can of paint' or does something else that results in a wreck, or injury or loss of life, that installer is responsible - not the city. Pulling a permit doesn't relieve you of the liability of your actions and transfer it to the city....

 

[Andy D]

People get permits to paint a door? As far as applying window vinyl or interior signage,
I have never heard of anyone ever getting a permit for that, then again, I'm not the one
dealing with permits here.

It might just be my Libertarian leanings but I think many required permits are just another way to bilk
the public for more money.

 

[Gino]

I'm pretty sure if an installer 'kicks over a can of paint' or does something else that results in a wreck, or injury or loss of life, that installer is responsible - not the city. Pulling a permit doesn't relieve you of the liability of your actions and transfer it to the city....

Ya think ?? How do you get blood from a stone ?? What if he/she has nothing ?? The lawyers will have a field day suing everyone remotely possibly connected and at the bottom, the municipality will be the final straw should no one else pony up, especially if there is no permit. Around here, the various boroughs, townships cities and whatever have people on staff to do basically one thing..... enforce codes. The town across the bridge from us has two people who go out each and every day taking pictures of everything taking place from signs going up or down to additions, car ports, fences..... you name it, they have it on file. Now, get a load of this. If when someone does become honest and takes out a permit for something and what is already there does not meet code, you must immediately bring it up to code before moving forward. Not knowing the rules, codes or policies is no excuse for disobeying the law.

I ran into that one about a year ago. The guy bought 2 buildings next to each other and rented the one out. The tenants wanted t replace all the signs, awnings and other stuff around the property. Seems when we applied, some of the signs did not show up on their radar and were denied, even though they were there before the recent codes had been in effect. The sign was there for over 35 years. They had to pay to take them down, before they were granted permits for the other signs. The one's being removed were by far the largest of the signs. It had a lotta impact on their visual from the road.

You hafta have permits to letter a front window or door in most places around here. Does everyone get them ?? I dunno. I let the owners get them, show me the proof of having them and then I proceed. I do however, put in my invoice that the permits were obtained by others, meaning the owners. It also shows up on our quote that our prices do not reflect obtaining any permits. So, we have 2 pieces of a paper trail stating they were told to get them.

Now, on the other hand, most of these permits are a nuisance. I agree wholeheartedly. My beef is with telling people to purposely disobey the law on such a forum which is supposed to help people..... not put them in the slammer. So what, if some other guy doesn't do it. That means you haftas follow suit ?? Hardly. Listen to the d flemings and jean shimps and the others saying the same thing. That is the decent advice taking place.