Question Reflective Vinyl Peeling

[Kylie2708]

I just recently laid reflective vinyl on a freshly painted metal/aluminum sign for our industrial complex. About a month after finishing the sign, all the vinyl began to peel from all edges cleanly from the material. I used Engineer Grade Reflective Vinyl. I have never experienced being able to peel off reflective vinyl that easily and cleanly with no residue left behind. There is vinyl on two different colors with different paint on the sign and it's peeling on both sections so I'm pretty sure it's not the paint. And I know you are supposed to let paint cure before applying graphics but after over 24 hours of drying, I didn't think I would have any issues using reflective since that usually is very tacky and hard to remove once applied.

I did put a few coats of clear spray on top of the sign before applying the vinyl without thinking about it because I was trying to protect the newly painted surface. I'm guessing it's the clear coat that has made it impossible for the reflective to stick properly? That's what my thoughts are considering I've never experienced this before. I just wanted to get other opinions first before trying to fix it. It was totally a rookie error on my part. Luckily, I didn't use anymore clear spray on the newer signs I've done. Hopefully those will stay in tack.

Thoughts?

 

[Adam Vreeke]

How long did you wait before applying the sign after finishing painting? A lot of paint degasses as it is drying and will cause a lot of problems with adhesives if proper drying time isn't done. Personally I never do anything to a fresh coat of paint until 1 week after they are all done painting. This gives the wall plenty of time to fart out all the gasses.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Find out what kind of paint it was but I seriously doubt that's the problem. It's probably that crap rattle can clear you put on the signs for whatever reason. You sure its not pulling that clear with the vinyl?

 

[Kylie2708]

How long did you wait before applying the sign after finishing painting? A lot of paint degasses as it is drying and will cause a lot of problems with adhesives if proper drying time isn't done. Personally I never do anything to a fresh coat of paint until 1 week after they are all done painting. This gives the wall plenty of time to **** out all the gasses.

It was probably close to 48 hours. We just didn't have the kind of time to wait that long. We were refacing a very old sign so after stripping the old reflective and cleaning the residue off we had to sand it down which took days. Basically the prep work took almost a week and then we had to paint it. We were rushed which isn't ideal. I'm just wondering if that clear coat had anything to do with it just because of how cleanly the vinyl peeled off?

 

[Kylie2708]

Find out what kind of paint it was but I seriously doubt that's the problem. It's probably that crap rattle can clear you put on the signs for whatever reason. You sure its not pulling that clear with the vinyl?

It's hard to tell if the clear coat is coming off with the vinyl but it doesn't seem to be.

 

[MikePro]

heck, even autobody paint will declare 60-90days before you can wax a new paintjob before giving proper time for paint to cure. A bit much for sign purposes, but I'll usually give it a solid 3-4+days for reflective depending on time of the year.

reflective vinyl traps solvent gases that seemingly dry paint still sweats-out.
more gases when loading up more layers of paint, all creeping out through each other but being stopped by the reflective vinyl & softening it, escaping at the edges and curling the reflective as it dries inside to out.

although when this is an issue for me, it reveals itself as millions of bubbles beneath the vinyl. if not for outgassing-effect, the curling edges makes me wonder if a calendared laminate was involved with the reflective vinyl?

 

[d fleming]

If you spent days reclaiming that metal you might should have started with new. Time is $

 

[Kylie2708]

heck, even autobody paint will declare 60-90days before you can wax a new paintjob before giving proper time for paint to cure. A bit much for sign purposes, but I'll usually give it a solid 3-4+days for reflective depending on time of the year.

reflective vinyl traps solvent gases that seemingly dry paint still sweats-out.
more gases when loading up more layers of paint, all creeping out through each other but being stopped by the reflective vinyl & softening it, escaping at the edges and curling the reflective as it dries inside to out.

although when this is an issue for me, it reveals itself as millions of bubbles beneath the vinyl. if not for outgassing-effect, the curling edges makes me wonder if a calendared laminate was involved with the reflective vinyl?

I did use a calendared laminate. Normally I use a cast but there have been shortages in the cast vinyl/laminate I get and did not have any on hand this time. Would that cause it to not stick? I have attached an image of the sign. There was another line of text above the one in the image and I peeled it all off in about 30 seconds. Did not take any paint off or leave any residue. Again, this vinyl had been on for almost 2 months at this point.

 

[Kylie2708]

If you spent days reclaiming that metal you might should have started with new. Time is $

True but the Industrial Park we work in gets new tenants all the time and we just reface the old panels with the new logos after repainting because they do not want to pay for new ones every time. Unfortunately we can only do with what the customer is willing to pay even after suggesting otherwise. Plus, another sign company was doing these but once we moved in we started doing them so we were trying to match what the other company was doing.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

The long off gassing of paint is not true. Has anyone here that swears it will cause problems actually ever done it and seen it happen? I have a paint shop and do this multiple times a week. If solvent paint off gassed for days then the surface would have bubbles all over it which is called solvent pop. That happens when you don't allow enough flash time between coats or paint too heavy and the surface hardens. Tech sheets generally call for 20mins between coats which is sufficient time for the solvents to escape. The waxing thing is nonsense. The only reason you tell someone not to do that is because the surface scratches easier when it's fresh. Cars come out of the booth and get wet sanded/buffed the day they get painted or the next day at most.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I did use a calendared laminate. .

View attachment 153843

Well there ya go, mystery solved. Not paint related.

 

[MikePro]

Has anyone here that swears it will cause problems actually ever done it and seen it happen?

yup, on black reflective vinyl lettering that was applied to sign panels a day or two after it was painted.
curled corners & perimeter of ALL the 2-4" lettering on twenty or so double-sided 3'x4' sign panels.
no laminate. so source of failure was entirely limited to paint & stock reflective vinyl.

Replaced ALL of the lettering after the issue was noticed a week after install, with the same reflective vinyl, and they're still pristine now 6+ years later.

if you need to "see it to believe it" simply take a paper towel that's wet with paint thinner, and lay it across applied reflective vinyl for a minute or two.... won't be on long enough to attack the paint, but you'll see the lettering start to bacon-collar, no matter how well its applied. Allow it to air-dry, and it curls.
so don't simply claim its "not paint related", because calendared overlam won't simply cause reflective to curl so rapidly... OP's issue is most likely a combination of both items. Solvents softening the vinyl, calendared overlam exaggerating the curl.

 

[ikarasu]

The long off gassing of paint is not true. Has anyone here that swears it will cause problems actually ever done it and seen it happen? I have a paint shop and do this multiple times a week. If solvent paint off gassed for days then the surface would have bubbles all over it which is called solvent pop. That happens when you don't allow enough flash time between coats or paint too heavy and the surface hardens. Tech sheets generally call for 20mins between coats which is sufficient time for the solvents to escape. The waxing thing is nonsense. The only reason you tell someone not to do that is because the surface scratches easier when it's fresh. Cars come out of the booth and get wet sanded/buffed the day they get painted or the next day at most.

Yes. We do cop cars all the time. Including re decalling repaired ones. They come straight from the repair shop to ours - one was put on and painted 2 days before coming to us. The vinyl went on ok, then next morning we get a call... Lots of bubbles. We goto their shop because we figured our installer left a bubble or two...

About 50 small, pimple sized bubbles all over just the newly repaired and painted panel... The panel right next to it that was put on at the same time and cut between panels was perfectly fine. Now we ask how long ago was it painted, and we force them to wait at least 4-5 days.


It's the same thing with solvent prints. Can you laminate them an hour after they're printed? Sure. Will it cause issues? Most of the time not... But when it does, it's always on the job that makes you look like an idiot to your client.

Is that what happened here? I doubt it. This vinyl is falling off...and reflective is aggressive. It doesn't look like any glue is left behind or nothing.. my guess is it's the rattle can clear causing an issue, not offgassing paint... But offgassing paint is definately a thing.


Even on walls... We had a 4 ft cut out decal to apply to a hospital wall before a photoshoot... They informed us they painted the night before. We told them we'd do it, but you need to wait 5-10 days after painting a wall to ensure it'll stick... That we have a feeling it'll peel off, if it does well just replace it because we know they're in a tight deadline (and they spend 50-60k a year with us) so we'd help them out and put it up... But expect it to peel off or bubble.

Sure enough next day they send us a photo of the 4 ft squirrel who looked like he was having a stroke because all the edges and small sections was peeling off. They knew to expect it, it lasted for their photo shoot perfectly so they were happy... A week later we replaced it and it's been up for months now with no issues.


Every paint has different levels of solvents and offgass at different intervals. Putting a blanket statement of you will, or you won't have issues is never a good idea. I'm glad the paint you use never has issues, but there's been a few times where we have... So now it's always we recommend you wait xx days, but if you're insistant we don't, no warranty if it does fail due to offgassing. It's a Compromise between waiting and not waiting, and the customer gets educated and knows what to expect rather than sends an angry email that the 20 ft wall graphic we just out up that had his face now has a million bubbles and his image is ruined!

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Yes. We do cop cars all the time. Including re decalling repaired ones. They come straight from the repair shop to ours - one was put on and painted 2 days before coming to us. The vinyl went on ok, then next morning we get a call... Lots of bubbles. We goto their shop because we figured our installer left a bubble or two...

About 50 small, pimple sized bubbles all over just the newly repaired and painted panel... The panel right next to it that was put on at the same time and cut between panels was perfectly fine. Now we ask how long ago was it painted, and we force them to wait at least 4-5 days.


It's the same thing with solvent prints. Can you laminate them an hour after they're printed? Sure. Will it cause issues? Most of the time not... But when it does, it's always on the job that makes you look like an idiot to your client.

Is that what happened here? I doubt it. This vinyl is falling off...and reflective is aggressive. It doesn't look like any glue is left behind or nothing.. my guess is it's the rattle can clear causing an issue, not offgassing paint... But offgassing paint is definately a thing.


Even on walls... We had a 4 ft cut out decal to apply to a hospital wall before a photoshoot... They informed us they painted the night before. We told them we'd do it, but you need to wait 5-10 days after painting a wall to ensure it'll stick... That we have a feeling it'll peel off, if it does well just replace it because we know they're in a tight deadline (and they spend 50-60k a year with us) so we'd help them out and put it up... But expect it to peel off or bubble.

Sure enough next day they send us a photo of the 4 ft squirrel who looked like he was having a stroke because all the edges and small sections was peeling off. They knew to expect it, it lasted for their photo shoot perfectly so they were happy... A week later we replaced it and it's been up for months now with no issues.


Every paint has different levels of solvents and offgass at different intervals. Putting a blanket statement of you will, or you won't have issues is never a good idea. I'm glad the paint you use never has issues, but there's been a few times where we have... So now it's always we recommend you wait xx days, but if you're insistant we don't, no warranty if it does fail due to offgassing. It's a Compromise between waiting and not waiting, and the customer gets educated and knows what to expect rather than sends an angry email that the 20 ft wall graphic we just out up that had his face now has a million bubbles and his image is ruined!

All I can tell you is that my business is nothing but production paint and decals. It's not uncommon for us to put decals on things that were painted the same day and still tacky. Like I said before, the off gassing can not happen without it effecting the surface of the paint. Solvents are evaporated in catalyzed paints in minutes. If you applied decals 5 mins after it was sprayed that'd be different. Just because you had a problem 1 time does not mean it's caused by what you thought. Just like this thread, the op finally says he put calendered laminate on the prints. Same with signs burning, there's always nonsense about off gassing but every time it always boils down to cheap laminate.
Do you think ford parks their trucks that are fresh off the assembly line for a week before they get decals or emblems put on? Things just don't work like that.

 

[ikarasu]

All I can tell you is that my business is nothing but production paint and decals. It's not uncommon for us to put decals on things that were painted the same day and still tacky. Like I said before, the off gassing can not happen without it effecting the surface of the paint. Solvents are evaporated in catalyzed paints in minutes. If you applied decals 5 mins after it was sprayed that'd be different. Just because you had a problem 1 time does not mean it's caused by what you thought. Just like this thread, the op finally says he put calendered laminate on the prints. Same with signs burning, there's always nonsense about off gassing but every time it always boils down to cheap laminate.
Do you think ford parks their trucks that are fresh off the assembly line for a week before they get decals or emblems put on? Things just don't work like that.

You asked if anyone has actually had something happen because of it.. so I gave 2 examples, as did another user.

We've been a screenprinting company for roughly 25 Years now... We also deal with tons and tons of paint and chemicals. A screen printed sign can be dry to the touch... But the next day if you put them face to face... they'll cause a reaction and re-wet themselves and get messed up. Just because something is dried, does not mean it is cured. If you have a solvent printer and it dries... then you put it face to face...same thing. Wall paint...car paint, its all the same. They use pigment + chemicals, once the chemicals disolve (some call it offgass... which is technically an incorrect term) the paint dries and cures, and forms its bond. It can be dry to the touch and still curing for weeks, or months depending on the paint. Those VOCS that are disolving need to go somewhere. On walls they can sometimes go through the wall if the front is covered in vinyl...sometimes its small enough to go through the vinyl air pockets, sometimes it just stays there and never causes an issue. MOST of the time thats the case.

Theres a reason reflective tends to be the worst with offgassing... It uses encapsed glass beads and no air can get through it at all. So the bubbles start to form and have nowhere to go. I've never seen it in non reflective vinyl, but reflective vinyl will produce bubbles if you put it over a freshly painted surface.... We've had it happen on more than one occasion, So we're either the unluckiest company in the world, or 3M, Sherwin williams...all the paint manufacturers who spend millions on RND and testing might be right when they say their product doesnt cure for days/weeks.

Again... based on the photos I dont think thats what happened to OP. I also dont think it's the overlam... Engineer grade reflective vinyl is a calandered product and doesnt typically need cast ontop of it. It also has one of the most tacky ahesives out there... If the calandered vinyl shrank within 1 month (doubtful) and started to lift the vinyl off the sign... it would leave behind so much residue and glue spots. More likely its the rattle can, cheap spray has something in it thats preventing the vinyl from sticking.... Plus if the sign finished drying 48 hours before... how long before it got sprayed to when the stickers went on? minutes? hours? In all likelyhood the clear made it a Low tack surface if you can easily peel reflective off. I would try with a new piece of reflective... put it on and then after it bonds for 24 hours, see if it comes off easily or not. Its just like powder coated materials... Normal vinyl hates sticking to powder coated, we always use High tac for it... the clear lacquer probably did the same thing.

 

[Kylie2708]

Yeah. I never thought it was the paint itself because I have worked with these paints for a while and never seen issues like this with vinyl decals. I just figured it had to do with the clear coat. I've worked at a sign company for over 5 years now and I've never seen anything quite this odd as far as the reflective coming off so cleanly. I wouldn't say the laminate I used was cheap. I use it on almost everything except for vehicle wraps. I'm not saying the lam isn't at fault at all but I find it very hard to believe that it's the only issue. The vinyl is still tacky after peeling it off but it's definitely not as tacky as it should be considering it is reflective so it probably is peeling off some of the clear coat. I waited almost 48 hours AFTER the clear coat dried before applying the decals. There were no bubbles in the paint and there is no separation of the vinyl and laminate and I applied the vinyl with no bubbles underneath so my suspicion of it being the clear coat seems legit now. I shouldn't have even put it on there. I paint a lot of things that don't require putting decals over it so I wasn't really thinking about that at the time of applying the clear coat because that's my usual process. I will do it right the next time. Like I said, I just did a few signs last week without the clear coat so we will see how those hold up compared to this one.

 

[bowtievega]

If you use a quality paint product (Grip Guard, Matthews, PPG, etc) you shouldn't have issues with paint not hardening to the point where you can put graphics on the next day. We are constantly painting and applying vinyl to panels the next day with no issues. Issues can arise if someone doesn't mix the paint accurately and maybe doesn't put in the correct amount of hardener? Occasionally we even use accelerator and apply graphics same day. In regards to the OP's issue with the reflective, i would think it has more to do with putting calendered laminate over the reflective vinyl. We don't laminate any cut vinyl ever. That calendered laminate looks like it shrinks way more than that reflective and curling is exactly what you are going to get. I am surprised on how cleanly the reflective is coming off tho, that might have something to do with whatever type of clearcoat was put on the panel. We clear panels all the time but its a urethane clearcoat just like the paint and it goes over the vinyl graphics not under it.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

You asked if anyone has actually had something happen because of it.. so I gave 2 examples, as did another user.

We've been a screenprinting company for roughly 25 Years now... We also deal with tons and tons of paint and chemicals. A screen printed sign can be dry to the touch... But the next day if you put them face to face... they'll cause a reaction and re-wet themselves and get messed up. Just because something is dried, does not mean it is cured. If you have a solvent printer and it dries... then you put it face to face...same thing. Wall paint...car paint, its all the same. They use pigment + chemicals, once the chemicals disolve (some call it offgass... which is technically an incorrect term) the paint dries and cures, and forms its bond. It can be dry to the touch and still curing for weeks, or months depending on the paint. Those VOCS that are disolving need to go somewhere. On walls they can sometimes go through the wall if the front is covered in vinyl...sometimes its small enough to go through the vinyl air pockets, sometimes it just stays there and never causes an issue. MOST of the time thats the case.

Theres a reason reflective tends to be the worst with offgassing... It uses encapsed glass beads and no air can get through it at all. So the bubbles start to form and have nowhere to go. I've never seen it in non reflective vinyl, but reflective vinyl will produce bubbles if you put it over a freshly painted surface.... We've had it happen on more than one occasion, So we're either the unluckiest company in the world, or 3M, Sherwin williams...all the paint manufacturers who spend millions on RND and testing might be right when they say their product doesnt cure for days/weeks.

Again... based on the photos I dont think thats what happened to OP. I also dont think it's the overlam... Engineer grade reflective vinyl is a calandered product and doesnt typically need cast ontop of it. It also has one of the most tacky ahesives out there... If the calandered vinyl shrank within 1 month (doubtful) and started to lift the vinyl off the sign... it would leave behind so much residue and glue spots. More likely its the rattle can, cheap spray has something in it thats preventing the vinyl from sticking.... Plus if the sign finished drying 48 hours before... how long before it got sprayed to when the stickers went on? minutes? hours? In all likelyhood the clear made it a Low tack surface if you can easily peel reflective off. I would try with a new piece of reflective... put it on and then after it bonds for 24 hours, see if it comes off easily or not. Its just like powder coated materials... Normal vinyl hates sticking to powder coated, we always use High tac for it... the clear lacquer probably did the same thing.

Dude you're pulling this stuff out of your ass. This isn't like your panties drying by hanging them out on the clothesline. Oil based paint doesnt dry by evaporation, the oil oxidizes which cures it. That's an air dry paint. Catalyzed paint undergo a polymerization, cross linking, which cures the paint chemically. The solvents are simply for viscosity so you can apply them.

 

[WhiskeyDreamer]

i didn't read through all the responses. but what type of paint did you use? automotive paints are a minimum of 30 days to apply graphics. sign enamels, i usually wait at least 3-4 days (with the board is a temperature controlled environment if possible) before applying graphics.

 

[WhiskeyDreamer]

Odd that it's still tacky.
I'll chalk this up to q-anon.

C'mon seriously?

seriously. why should i when the OP can't even put all the details in the original post? they basically asked, i applied vinyl to this fresh paint and don't know why it isn't sticking. where are the details? what type of vinyl? was it printed? what kind of lam? what kind of paint? how long did the blank sit before app? was it a wet or dry app? is there more than one? are the others having the same problem?

i can go on if you'd like.