Need Help Router Bits & ACM

[Krf1786]

Good Morning!

A few things…

1. When routing ACM with IJ35+3M Luster Lam applied, does anyone run into the issue of the scrap material shavings ending up on the product that needs to be more than just dusted off? The shavings are tiny looking moon shapes for the most part but what I’m guessing is they are hot enough to where they kind of “embed” themselves into the lam. It requires using a finger with pressure to remove them and the product ends up looking like garbage.

I was thinking (if heat is the issue) to maybe slow down the spindle? Idk. I’ll attach a photo of the “debris” I’m referring to.

2. When routing 6mm ACM, I’m able to get away with using the same bit for almost 10 4x8 sheets without the vinyl/lam having shitty edges. When routing 3mm ACM, sometimes a brand new bit doesn’t even finish the sheet without messing up the edges.

I’ve spent a ton of time trying to understand this and all I can come up with is maybe vibration difference?

3. What do you guys use for 1/8” bits to cut through 1.5” HDU? We have been getting them from vortex, but they are very expensive because of the long length with the 1/8” diameter. I’ve been able to find 1.25” on Amazon, but nothing longer.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and have a great day!

 

[letterworks]

If I understand you, you are getting bits of the cutting in/on the laminate? I always get my customers to premask anything but raw sheet (direct print might be ok) because usually the adhesive of the vinyl (and maybe / probably the laminate) sticks to itself quite well. Heat might have something to do with that, but I don't *think* the cutting chips themselves are the issue although they probably get stuck as part of the deal too.

As for cuts, I find a 1/4" bit works way better than a smaller bit on either 3mm or 6mm but obviously the upshear force matches better with the heavier 6mm sheet. I typically have to hand finish a little on ACM, and have been using 1/8 chinese upshear bits mostly because they are cheap and 90-95% as good in that diameter as the onsrud I was using (probably not the ideal onsrud mind you.)....one of those jobs I will probably try to have a "good" answer too some day.

 

[John Miller]

Have you tried putting application tape over the vinyl?

 

[Krf1786]

Have you tried putting application tape over the vinyl?

That was something I was considering. My concern with that is being able to see the pieces being cut. “Fortunately” we seem to do a ton of jobs with borders and there’s stretching issues. The worst part of the stretching is there’s zero consistency.


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[Krf1786]

If I understand you, you are getting bits of the cutting in/on the laminate? I always get my customers to premask anything but raw sheet (direct print might be ok) because usually the adhesive of the vinyl (and maybe / probably the laminate) sticks to itself quite well. Heat might have something to do with that, but I don't *think* the cutting chips themselves are the issue although they probably get stuck as part of the deal too.

As for cuts, I find a 1/4" bit works way better than a smaller bit on either 3mm or 6mm but obviously the upshear force matches better with the heavier 6mm sheet. I typically have to hand finish a little on ACM, and have been using 1/8 chinese upshear bits mostly because they are cheap and 90-95% as good in that diameter as the onsrud I was using (probably not the ideal onsrud mind you.)....one of those jobs I will probably try to have a "good" answer too some day.

Thank you for taking the time for the lengthy reply. I truly appreciate it!

Yes. The bits that the vacuum doesn’t suck up are what’s landing on the job.

Another variable I failed to mention before is I’m using an 1/8” strait flute bit. I like how it leaves the waste in the channel so the pieces don’t move around. I don’t have a vacuum table so this is quite helpful. Not sure if this matters though.

I will try 1/4” for sure to see if there’s any difference on the 3mm. I never considered that. Spacing out the pieces and not being able to get as many up on a sheet would be much better than dealing with the edges. +1 for the idea.


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[Krf1786]

I also tried the 3mm without an under layer btw (coroplast).. didn’t make a difference with the edges.


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[Raum Divarco]

for 1 & 2 have you considered cleaning your underlay and cutting them from the back.
Luster lam is nice but I find this is a common issue when router cutting through it.
If you have a nice table surface you can bore out your holes, mirror the file and cut from the back on the single sided prints.
as long as your bed is clean you wont have debris and impressions transferred to your laminate.

Do you also have knife cutting options on your cutter and if so are the tools properly aligned.
You can use a blade to try to score around the area that will be router cut.
For low volume without a vac table you could consider to use the blade tools first and remove laminate around the cut area.
Then you can at least cut it how you would like and not have the sticky debris and hot chips landing on your laminate face as much.
Down bits are also a good option but the edge quality might be reduced.

Based upon your volume, do you find the stretch is off of the printer or more after lamination?
Do you have an application table?
precutting signs and mounting with options like those for low - med volumes can be a good choice.

 

[bowtievega]

We use a 1/4" dia down cut bit for ACM. Helps hold the pieces in place and keeps us from having any chipping around the edges on full bleed prints. We also transfer tape the faces all of our direct printed sheets prior to cutting. We cut alot of aluminum with a mister on that machine as well, the transfer tape keeps us from getting any of that oily dust build up on the printed panels if a little falls off the machine. Also protects the parts while we stack them up or put tape on the backs. The down cut works well of 1/8" material. If you want to cut something thicker you might need to ramp in your start to keep from compressing too much material. We do cut translucent vinyl on the faces of our acrylic push thrus with an up cut bit with no issues as long as the bit is sharp. Helps to have transfer tape on top of that vinyl as well.

 

[Ardor Creative]

We've had success with premasking the print and then still using a 1/16" bit for 3mm and 1/8" for 6mm.

 

[Boudica]

Have you tried putting application tape over the vinyl?

This. We always cover with R-tape when we send sheets to be CNC cut. Weather it's vinyl mounted, or direct uv printed. For the exact reason the op asked about. We had that one (or two) experiences requiring a redo. So we always send it protected with tape.

 

[Z SIGNS]

Do the 1st profile cut with a v bit on the line .010 deep. The v bit won't tear up your vinyl and will leave a nice slight bevel.
Do the final cut with any straight bit.

 

[letterworks]

I should add to those that don't like the application tape option, you probably could use something else to stop the adhesion (LOL, WD40 comes to mind but something that would prevent adhesion and easy to clean off would work like soapy water solution).

I'm still looking for a better ACM bit. I am using something like the Belin mentioned above, but the chinese knock off version. It's OK.
Straight flute Onsrud has be OK but I'd still like to see any 1/8" bit that matches the cut I can get from a simple 1/4 upcut O flute.

Some of the problem of course is the aluminum in the cheaper panels is not good.

V cut and then straight is worth trying, although I hesitate to use a V cutter that I might need for acrylic with aluminum....might dull the shit out of it too quick.

 

[Krf1786]

for 1 & 2 have you considered cleaning your underlay and cutting them from the back.
Luster lam is nice but I find this is a common issue when router cutting through it.
If you have a nice table surface you can bore out your holes, mirror the file and cut from the back on the single sided prints.
as long as your bed is clean you wont have debris and impressions transferred to your laminate.

Do you also have knife cutting options on your cutter and if so are the tools properly aligned.
You can use a blade to try to score around the area that will be router cut.
For low volume without a vac table you could consider to use the blade tools first and remove laminate around the cut area.
Then you can at least cut it how you would like and not have the sticky debris and hot chips landing on your laminate face as much.
Down bits are also a good option but the edge quality might be reduced.

Based upon your volume, do you find the stretch is off of the printer or more after lamination?
Do you have an application table?
precutting signs and mounting with options like those for low - med volumes can be a good choice.

The stretch is off from the printer. Im assuming more stretching can happen from applying the vinyl to the dibond as well as the lam to the vinyl.. but not enough to notice.

I do not have an application table. I use the same laminator to apply the vinyl as the lam.

 

[Krf1786]

We've had success with premasking the print and then still using a 1/16" bit for 3mm and 1/8" for 6mm.

What are you premasking it with?