Sheet nesting

[CanuckSigns]

Has anyone been able to figure out a way to use excel or filemaker to figure out material useage nesting in our industry? I'm toying around with filemaker and what I'm hoping to do is be able to enter a list of sign sizes (all different) and materials/sheets and have the program figure out how many 4x8 sheets I will need, along with telling me the amount of waste.

I've wrapped my head around doing this if all the signs are the same size, but I can't wrap my head around how to account for fitting small signs into the waste area.

Ultimately I want to create a pricing program in filemaker that our staff can use for quoting print jobs without me, square foot pricing isn't ideal, because if someone wants a 27" x 7' sign on ACM, I'm left with a fairly useless offcut that wasn't paid for.

I know there are pricing programs that exist and nesting programs that will tell me all this, but I'm trying to keep it all in filemaker to integrate into our workflow.

I could just add a preset waste factor into all equations and forget about this, but I figured I should ask first.

 

[ColorCrest]

square foot pricing isn't ideal

Consider pricing each line item per linear foot or per sheet for items which require such. Nesting is mainly for your benefit and not necessarily for the customer.

Determine your cost per linear feet for the various widths of materials you stock, or could / should stock and costs per sheet for those type materials. Then determine your carrying costs, then a preferred selling price per unit. Quote some fictitious items and compare the results to local market prices. You might find you will need to adjust the "preferred" selling price per unit to be competitive. Your final formula will use rates of equipment time (& their materials such as ink, tooling, etc.), labor, and materials.

I hope this helps as a start.

 

[CanuckSigns]

Consider pricing each line item per linear foot or per sheet for items which require such. Nesting is mainly for your benefit and not necessarily for the customer.

Determine your cost per linear feet for the various widths of materials you stock, or could / should stock and costs per sheet for those type materials. Then determine your carrying costs, then a preferred selling price per unit. Quote some fictitious items and compare the results to local market prices. You might find you will need to adjust the "preferred" selling price per unit to be competitive. Your final formula will use rates of equipment time (& their materials such as ink, tooling, etc.), labor, and materials.

I hope this helps as a start.

Thanks for that, I'm aware of the benefit of using linear feet vs square feet for sure, but I'm Stull trying to figure out how to handle a quote request such as:

Prints on 3mm thick ACM
1 @ 14"x80"
3@ 30"x24"
10 @ 6"x8"

Now that whole order could be nested onto a single sheet of ACM, and a square foot style of pricing would work well enough, but if I figured out the linear feet used it would come up with 2 sheets and my quote would be higher then needed.

I might be overthinking it as well, I tend to do that, I could use square foot and add a waste factor of 20% or so.

Obvously this calculation would just figure out my costs, I would be adding labour and other expenses on top of this.

 

[ColorCrest]

Now that whole order could be nested onto a single sheet of ACM, and a square foot style of pricing would work well enough, but if I figured out the linear feet used it would come up with 2 sheets and my quote would be higher then needed.

Only you know the said sizes will fit on a single sheet but what happens if any of those prints have a defect? Would you need to pull an entire large sheet from stock? Even if you have a drop which could fit the re-print(s), the time involved is significant.

I understand what you're getting at and I certainly know you understand advantages of nesting, yield, pricing, etc. However, you're asking for a few different things with a single post; some definitive formulas AND some pricing strategies.

 

[ColorCrest]

but if I figured out the linear feet used it would come up with 2 sheets and my quote would be higher then needed.

This depends upon how you determine a "stock" size material in this case. You're saying you only keep full sheets from which to quote / price from. Can you possibly offer the product from half (or other size) sheets?

 

[netsol]

Perhaps you need to do both calculations and allow some sort of conditional statement to dothe final choice?

 

[GAC05]

This one looks like it will talk to excel and is only $29.00

SketchCut - Fast cutting

www.talisoftware.com

 

[Steenland]

Edit: Skip this post and see Old Member's post below. I did not know about CutListOptimizer.com
______________________________________
Harbor Sales has an excellent tool on their website that will do what you're looking for (I think). You don't need to actually purchase anything, but you will probably need to establish an account, because you need to have a product in your cart to use the tool. (Harborsales.net)

First, select your substrate (e.g., 3mm white ACM, one sheet @ 4' x 8') and add it to your shopping cart.

Next, click on the cart, then click on "Cut It..."

Now, add as many sizes and quantities as you want. When finished, click on "Optimize."

The site will then show you exactly how many sheets you'll need, how they lay out on the sheets, and the percentage of scrap for each sheet. It will even suggest other sizes of the same material if it ends up being more efficient.

I use this tool frequently when quoting jobs. You can save the cart if you're not ready to order yet.

 

[letterworks]

Cutlist plus ($200 ish)will work fine, good for those jobs where it's a bunch of random sizes. It might be able to input from excel if needed and can output to cad if needed for a little more.

Don't reinvent the wheel.

 

[GB2]

You are looking for the calculation that equals "Optimize" in the example above. If you could edit the title of this thread to be "Sheet Nesting with FileMaker Pro" you might attract more members that are familiar with FileMaker Pro however, you've already got one of the best on board with ColorCrest. That calculation seems quite complex and I don't have the answer but I'll give it some thought. Just to show you how complex the process can be, try reading this:

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.22.405&rep=rep1&type=pdf

 

[GB2]

Here's your example implemented at CutListOptimizer.com, perhaps you could just link a solution like this instead of trying to come up with the formula

 

[CanuckSigns]

Here's your example implemented at CutListOptimizer.com, perhaps you could just link a solution like this instead of trying to come up with the formula

View attachment 157762

Yeah I'm beginning to realize that this calculation is way more complex then I can wrap my head around! Thanks for this I think this is the best bet.

 

[Z SIGNS]

If you are shop that is doing thousands of square feet of signage it's a good idea to nest your cuts.
If you are a small shop doing one offs your material cost for that 18x24 panel, unless you have an offcut laying around, is the cost of a full sheet.

 

[CanuckSigns]

If you are shop that is doing thousands of square feet of signage it's a good idea to nest your cuts.
If you are a small shop doing one offs your material cost for that 18x24 panel, unless you have an offcut laying around, is the cost of a full sheet.

so if someone comes in looking for a 24"x 18" ACM sign, you think they should be billed based on a full $70 sheet of ACM plus print & labour?! but the next time they come in and I have a scrap piece on the shelf they only pay for that small piece?! I can't see my clients going for that at all, they want consistency.

 

[GB2]

I agree that consistency is critical to a proper pricing strategy. I think though, for pricing similar signs to your original example, a good approach would be based on linear footage. If you did that, then a 24x18 would be 6 sq ft, which is a calculation that you could easily build into FileMaker Pro. I think that is probably the way I would go if I were building out a strategy but since I'm not using a fully computerized system, I generally try to sell sheets like that in no smaller quantity than quarters, so a 24x18 would be 8 sq ft if my quote was strictly based on square footage of materials in low volume quantities.

 

[ColorCrest]

I'm trying to keep it all in filemaker to integrate into our workflow.

It took me 5 minutes, literally, to drag-out a web viewer in a prototype FileMaker solution I happen to be working on. (It takes me far longer to make screens shots to upload and to create this post.) I don't know anything about the website other than it worked beautifully for me when I entered the specs for cuts. All the site's panels scrolled and displayed perfectly.

So, that's at least one quick way for your staff to see, at least, how sizes might fit within given confines. (I have no idea about costs or limitations one might find when using any site they work with when using FileMaker's web viewer tool.)

There is far more to your post of questions and I will be happy to offer more, time permitting.

 

[letterworks]

You can automate if you can copy and past from the main app and get a result from the other app (even if that means your guys reading the nesting # of sheets, etc.

I have in the past used autohotkey, a very versatile macro programming system, to solve little problems like this. Tools like it are one way to get disparate programs to work together. For example, you could cut / export the size data from filemaker, paste into an excel file, save, open the optimizer, load the excel file, do the nesting and print the result to a file or to screen, then perhaps import back to filemaker.

It's a learning curve, like everything, but I will say that the work on my point of sale (adding custom search functions and assigning to a hotkey) that I did 10 years ago works almost without a hitch for years and years (and the hitch is easy for anyone to get past by reloading the script)....I'm a fan.

Another approach that I'm using on a website, but doesn't really solve the nesting issue (but is great for fair and consistent pricing), is to use a lookup table where you specify what cuts you are willing to make in various materials and then lookup the customer's size to the nearest match that fits.

My 4x8 material (of regular stuff we always have and sell) array reads like below:

In my case, this is allowing a 12x12 cut, a 12x24 cut, a 24 x 24 cut, a 12x48 cut, a 24 x 48 cut, a 32 x 48 cut, and a half sheet either way, and a full sheet. If I remember correctly.

Note that my result values below are the sqft of the cut less a discount from the 1 sqft price (ie they are a multiple of the single sqft price) and that I have some entries, like 12 by 96, that use the value of the 24 x 96 cut as I have to allow the match for the whole thing to work but can round up the pricing so it doesn't matter.

$tables['4x8common'] = array(
'12' => array(
'12' => 1,
'24' => 2,
'48' => 3.8,
'96' => 14.4,
'999' => 9999,
),
'24' => array(
'24' => 4,
'48' => 7.6,
'96' => 14.4,
'999' => 9999,
),
'32' => array(
'48' => 10.14,
'96' => 24,
'999' => 9999,
),
'48' => array(
'48' => 13.6,
'96' => 24,
'999' => 9999,
),
);

 

[ColorCrest]

Another approach that I'm using on a website, but doesn't really solve the nesting issue (but is great for fair and consistent pricing), is to use a lookup table where you specify what cuts you are willing to make in various materials and then lookup the customer's size to the nearest match that fits.

My 4x8 material (of regular stuff we always have and sell) array reads like below:

In my case, this is allowing a 12x12 cut, a 12x24 cut, a 24 x 24 cut, a 12x48 cut, a 24 x 48 cut, a 32 x 48 cut, and a half sheet either way, and a full sheet. If I remember correctly.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ This. The post by letterworks is well written and explains an important and common concept.

I know of a site mainly for the photographer and decorator audience which lists 52 sizes of metal prints. The vast majority of the sizes can be readily framed because those sizes are now standard in the hobby / craft / decorating trades. The individual sizes are not priced using a consistent area price because their production yield is not consistent. Any scrap / off cut / drop needs to be compensated for by the customer. Especially with photography and before any notion of square foot print pricing became the norm, print media and certain other materials were only available in a very few sheet sizes; 8x10, 11x14, 16x20, 30x40, etc. If a customer wanted a 12x18 they would need to pay for a 16x20. Any mounting substrate was charged just as mentioned above by letterworks. This same concept is very common in shops for pricing with whatever tool they're using.

Again, a nesting benefit should be considered as profitable for the shop, not necessarily for the customer.

BTW as a reminder, some RIPS can display nested layouts using proxy shapes to give a clue about yield.

 

[Pauly]

What you want to do is a neat concept. It makes the pricing more desirable for customers who need a handful of odd sizes.
I know there's external software that does. (i forget which ones)
I also understand the quicker / easier to calculate a price, the better it is.

We just nest out a sheet with the same sizes. And each job is always min 1 sheet.
If the job has 2 different sizes. That's 2 different sheets (even if they're both half used)
If the sizes are odd and dont nest well, it'll cost a lot more, than a size that will nest well.
It's not the most efficient method, but it works well. Always pros and cons.


A dirty solution would be a formula that calculates print area + sheet.
I know this in metric, but same applies to feet.

Some numbers to make our calculations visual,
Print = $10 per 1sqm
Stock = $50 per sheet

If your customer wants 4x 600mm x 900mm.
Calculation:
4x 600mm x 900mm = 2.2SQM
= $22.
This all fits on 1 sheet,
1 sheet = $50
Total = $72.

Customer wants:
5x 600mm x 900mm (2.7sqm)
2x 1200mm x 300mm (0.36 / 0.4 (round up))
Total = 3.1 sqm = $31 for print
3.1 = 2 sheets - $100
total $131

May not always work, but you can add a percentage threshold for when to use a new sheet.

Again, dirty method, but would be easier to implement as a formula VS trying to make something to nest out your sizes.

 

[Stacey K]

In a small shop you almost have to have to charge for standard sizes - I have standard sizes and they pay for the next size up if the size isn't listed. I keep 18x24 coro and .040 alum blanks in stock. I'm OK cutting that in half, so they pay for either 9x12 or 18x24 - period unless there's a high quantity. The 4x8 sheets there's standard sizes they pay for and once the scrap gets under 24" they pay for the sheet. I had 4 sheets of .040 alum cut last week at 18x96...that left 4 scraps of 12x96 - pretty useless for me so they paid for the entire sheet. Alumalite or something like that I will allow a cut-off of 24"x48" and not charge for a full sheet but the smallest sign I typically make with alumalite is 24x48 so that's the smallest scrap I want laying around that isn't paid for. If they order only 1 or 2 odd ball sizes they pay for the next size up and I add a cut charge of $3 per cut if I cut for anything other than 18x24 or 9x12. I don't have a sheer so I try really hard to stick with standard sizes and less cuts. If it's large quantities I pay a little extra and order the blanks. Otherwise I cut in house or I pay a guy up the road to sheer them and that is a hassle.

People are more conforming to your standard sizes when you start charging cut fees or charge a minimum size fee.