Signs 101 Family...HELP

[ChiknNutz]

Really tough to say, w/o knowing all the particulars about you and your business, plus what your plans are. As far as a digital printer goes, the way the market seems to be going, you can get stuff cheap enough to not really need to have it in house. Personally, I like having the control of it all, but I got my printer when the market wasn't so flooded with others willing to print for peanuts. Before I got my printer, I also considered the ShopBot and still am to some degree. You can make a LOT more PSF with routed goods, but I've not been able to generate enough business in that market to justify one. Now, if I had one, I would be trying harder to sell that type of work. Still, I would like to have a router since I now have a printer. But, if I were to choose one or the other w/o having either, I think you will make more with the printer than the router (that is unless you've already secured a large base for the router work).

Personally, I don't know that I would consider this ValueJet. I would look at the Mimaki JV3 or JV5 before that. Maybe these are better than their predecessors, but I still wonder about the method of service (that you WILL need at some point). Also, 48" mat'l is an oddball size and you CANNOT print a full-bleed 4x8 with it...just doesn't make any sense to me to make a printer that won't do that.

So, there you go!

 

[Mrs. Uneedasign]

Skyhigh, we to are at this same crossroad in our business. Didn't want to high jack your thread. I am the penny pincher of the bussiness. The advice you have gotten is good advice.and I am watching the poll to see what everyone is saying. We have a great rescource for prints, but we still want one. The router is also a valuble tool and I still need my husband to convince me to buy one. Our son who is also in this line of work is pushing the router as he work in a shop here [so. ca.] that ran their router every day. He tells us it's a hudge money maker.I need to see how many other shops are routing. Either way we go we need to market in that direction. I would like to do the printer as well but have many conserns on the people discounting prints.All and all I am leaning towards the printing side[more control on our prints]. Go for the truck if it's in the budget. Again as I am the tight wad in this shop I belive in baby steps and being careful with our debt.Californias rents on retail are going at around 1.25 to 1.50 a sq. foot,thats a big nut to crack each month. Talk it over with the wife and decide what your current customers needs are. How much routered signs have you had orders for. And our you a good sales man?Good luck to you !! Great thread by the way.

 

[ENTDesign]

Buy the equipment that will immediately start making you the most profit, then you can look at the #2 item, paid for by the first one.

 

[CribIt]

I agree, buy em in the order you've got them listed.

 

[Gino]

Skyhigh…

Since window number 5 isn’t an option, what most are saying is that you should know better the direction you feel more comfortable in going. Where do your strengths lie ?? Can you sell a lot of sandblasted or carved signs in your area and stay competitive ?? Will that machine stay busy enough to pay for itself ?? Maybe printing your own in-house prints is an easier way of spending your money and getting your returns faster. I fully agree though that 48” would be a mistake. Look into a 54” for many reasons. More media comes that way [which equals more savings]. More times than not, you’ll need to print the full 48” and many times need the extra inch or two for grippers.

I know in talking with you, that you do lots of both kinds of signs. Just sit down and think of what it costs [your out-of-pocket cost] to get a 48” x 96” digital print out the door vs. what you can get paid for it and the amount of work, mess space needed to do that. Now the same 48” x 96” panel carved up, costs and all the same items … mess, paint, gluing up, sanding, heaviness, installation and so forth and figure out where you make your most profit with the least amount of money and headaches invested.

Ho-Ho-Ho…. Gotta spend that money before Saturday… or it won’t count for this year.

 

[skyhigh]

Ho-Ho-Ho…. Gotta spend that money before Saturday… or it won’t count for this year.

You got that right.

Between you and I, I'm leaning towards the skidsteer. My plans are to erect a larger building for the business. With my limited space, I'm kinda pushing the printer, laminator & cutter package. I could make it work, but would like to have more room to include a good vent. system.

The router is where my heart is..... the printer is where my mind says to go ($$$$$$).

If I don't talk to you before New Years, have a great time and make sure the wife drives... hahaha

EDIT: That was supposed to be a private message....but hey, we're all family. At least this explains a little more of where I'm coming from.

 

[Checkers]

I have to ask, did you maximize your personal decuctions yet? Stuff like contributing to your retirement, health savings or other accounts?
What about prepaying some of your bills/taxes for next year? Did you book your flight to Vegas or some other sunny destination where there's a sign show or convention?
The reason for asking is because all of what you're considering sounds pretty good, but I would not make the printer or router purchase on a whim. I'm not familiar with the valujet so I have to ask, does it print 48" or does it accept 48" material and only print 46" or 47". Do you plan on getting a laminator too? What about the computer and software to run it? Do you know how to run it or do you have time and resources budgeted for training too? The same basically applies to the router.
Anyway, I'm a strong beleiver that you have to put your business and employees first, making sure they have all the right tools they need to do a job. Afterall they are the ones making you money
From there, you have to put yourself first, making sure you are rewarded for the investment you've put into your business.

Checkers

 

[skyhigh]

The reason for asking is because all of what you're considering sounds pretty good, but I would not make the printer or router purchase on a whim. I'm not familiar with the valujet so I have to ask, does it print 48" or does it accept 48" material and only print 46" or 47". Do you plan on getting a laminator too? What about the computer and software to run it? Do you know how to run it or do you have time and resources budgeted for training too? The same basically applies to the router.
Checkers

There has been a couple of questions reguarding the valuejet. I have not researched roll material, but the printer accecpts 50" material and prints a full bleed 48 (my understanding). The cold laminator is a 53" (enduralam) and the cutter I bundled with the package is Sign Warehouse's private lable Q-130 (made by Graphtec) 54".

That's alot of wide equipment... I have the room, but it will put me in a real bind for "clean operating area". As I understand, the printer likes a very clean environment. The router on the other hand could utilize part of the garage area.

Update on the truck..... The dealer called today and sweetened an allready very sweet deal. Its a NEW (leftover 2006) and they have allready taken 10K off the sticker price, and offered me a decent price for my trade-in. I told them I would buy the truck if they gave me an extra 500 for my trade. I'll find out tomorrow.

That leaves the skidsteer..... one of those "INDIRECT" items that I could really use. Unfortunately its not a money making item. The upside is, it will hold its value better than any of the others.

TO KEN: The skidsteer...picture it with a 12" or 20" auger attachment (installing pylon sign posts) or better yet, landscaping around signs.

TO BRIAN (Checkers): Retirement??? What the heck is that?:Big Laugh

 

[Cadmn]

skid steer & bigger truck Is my vote so I could go into general contracting & make real money

 

[Ken]

Hi Sky, yes I had thought of the auger..should have mentioned in my post. How much does an auger attachment cost? Will that put you "over the top"(expense-wise) compared to the other potential items...
Where I live and work, I could easily put a skid-steer to work, but I would not operate it 'cause of health reasons ( deteriorating neck vertabrae). Too much bouncing around in one of those for me. So, I would have to hire some trusted soul to operate it..pay him/her well so they will stay on..and avoid an endless string of "hacks" that do more damage than good work. Then , of course, you will need the truck and trailer for the machine..... A lot of guys here use a single or tandem axel dump-truck ( with trailer) to move the machine around so they can deliver or remove dirt etc.
There's a local guy with all the attachments for his Bobcat..he is very much in demand. I dont think he has time to run a sign shop...
Kind regards...ken

 

[skyhigh]

of course, you will need the truck and trailer for the machine..... A lot of guys here use a single or tandem axel dump-truck ( with trailer) to move the machine around so they can deliver or remove dirt etc.

LOL... now your catching on Ken. Thats what I tell the wife AFTER I get the skidsteer.:Big Laugh

 

[chopper]

I have a skid loader, printer, 3/4 ton truck,(dodge ram cummins diesel) to pull the loader, also have a plasma cutter that we are in the process of setting up
and this machine will handle a router also, but if I had to choose which of them to keep I would have to go with the printer number one the loader number 2
once you have one(loader) you find new uses for it every day, I have a metal fab background and made a manlift to attach to the quick tach for installing signs that are above a ladders reach and I rent the auger attachment when needed....good luck tooo many choices...........chopper oh yeh I gess I would have to say all !!!!!!!!!

 

[iSign]

if you rush out and drop $40K on equipment in the next 48 hours...

..exactly how much tax are you saving yourself with this purchase?

...about $6K?

I've been considering doing something like this myself, but I'm not really sure it's worthwhile if I'm not really exactly needing a router yet. Maybe in June would be better for me... but right now... just to save on tax... it's tempting, but I don't know.

As an LLC, I've set an amount of "reasonable compensation" for my payroll to look good to the irs, & the rest of my profits are "stockholder distributions" & are not subject to self employment tax... so I think somewhere around 15% would be the tax savings I will recieve for last minute purchases.

I'll probably spend $6K or $8K on a few skids of sign supplies... which I guess aren't supposed to be deducted untill they get used on signs... but I've always written off those expenses right when I make them... so I plan to do that again.

 

[Checkers]

Hey Doug,
It's supposed to be 1/3 income, 1/3 overhead(paying yourself rent) and 1/3 dividends, assuming you own your building. I don't recall if you rent/lease or own.
Checkers

 

[skyhigh]

I've been considering doing something like this myself, but I'm not really sure it's worthwhile if I'm not really exactly needing a router yet. Maybe in June would be better for me... but right now... just to save on tax... it's tempting, but I don't know.

I guess it would all depend on whether you WANT something or feel you NEED it. I always use the word "need":Big Laugh .



UPDATE: I bought the skid steer. The plan is to start construction on a new building, and felt the skidsteer would be needed. After the building is up, I will re-evaluate its usefullness for my sign shop (post hole auger, landscaping around signs, ect...). I can always sell it and put the money towards the router or printer package.

I thank you all for your input.... you have brought up a lot of good points to consider. The printer or router WILL become a reality in the near future (I hope, and God willing). You all will be one of the first to know when that happens (right after my family and my banker:Big Laugh )

THANK YOU......:U Rock:

EDIT: PS, I forgot to mention..... Friday I used the auger attachment to sink a couple post holes (12" x 5' deep)... sweet.
Yesterday, I used the machine to landscape around a sign using river rock.... super sweet. Normally I would come home, take a hot shower and lay on the heating pad from shoveling all that rock..... instead I took the wife dancing and other fun things..... I think she NOW realizes the value in having the skid steer.

 

[2NinerNiner2]

Good choice 'Sky'

...here's what I spent WAY too many hours on! I don't know how many tons of fertilizer I loaded out with one of these! The nice thing about he NH models is the vertical lift boom; a lot more stable and better reach than the usual geometry. Just make sure that you BACK yours on to a tilt-trailer! LOL! I'm lucky to be alive after I drove my 775 onto one...guess where my hands were when the tilt trailer slammed? You got it...on the levers! And guess what the automatic reaction is? Yep, pull back! SLAM! Tilted back again!!!! Repeat as necessary to scare the you-know-what out of a person! Where was the video camera when you needed it! LOL

Enjoy your new toy...oops...err...I mean business tool!

HNY!

Cheers!
Lyle

 

[skyhigh]

Good story Lyle... thats some funny stuff.
On the brigh side, you added more fertilizer to your stock pile.:Big Laugh

HNY to you too.

 

[MAB SIGNS]

Funny story Lyle, glad your ok, those can be a little jumpy anyway. Congrats on the purchase Sky, sounds like your heading down the right path. I was going to ask Lyle if a change was necessary after his ride but your comment was better stated. <smiles>

Mark

 

[2NinerNiner2]

Yep...definitely added 'some' to the stockpile after that one! :Big Laugh :Big Laugh