Standing my ground....

[Custom_Grafx]

Hi Wendy,

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to quote on this work.

Our quote includes;
- Initial design concept
- Photo mock up
- Supply and professional installation

All orders come with standard 3 free minor changes to design (changing fonts, colours etc). Additional design revision time is calculated at $80/hour.

Preliminary art work can commence once your order is placed and a deposit payment of 50% is received.

Please let me know if you require any other advice or information before proceeding with your order, as I am happy to be of assistance where possible to recommend the best materials and layout considerations for this job.

Kind Regards,
Colin

=====================

Why do I take the above approach?

1) I have not even mentioned my price yet, but judging from the customer's response (or lack of), I know where I stand.

2) I don't come off as cheap or unprofessional

3) I am selling myself by using words like "professional installation" and offering my advice on materials (shows I'm a specialist and know what to use etc).

4) I've laid down my rules. 50% deposit. 3 free small changes. Anything else, $80/hr.

5) I don't think I have come across as being harsh or negative about a potentially lying client.

 

[visual800]

if I would have gotten this email i would have done a layout and submitted it. Times are lean and asking for a deposit would do nothing but cause a customer to forget you and move right down the list. no one else round here charges an art charge. There are fewer and fewer large jobs out there right now. It is NOT the time to be turning customers off UNLESS they are royal pains in the ass.

This subject has also been brought up on LH and its odd how everyone says they get a deposit and then one day they poast about having their art stolen because "On this one incident I didnt collect a deposit"....WHATEVER!

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

Si Allen said it simple ...nothing happens until deposit.

I listen then when they bring out the words we like to see it what it will look like. I bring out the words have you seen my website and the work I do. Do you think I'll be able to do something satisfactory and I work with you until it is.

 

[Colin]

Too harsh, No need to explain yourself on why you need a deposit. Would be more
professional to just give her a ballpark figure based on what you have in mind of doing.
Once they agree to the price then go into design deposits....

While I maintain that the policy of not designing and sending layouts by email without a deposit is a good one, you (and others) could be right about having a better approach. (Thanks Custom Grafx for that post).
I guess I'm at a point right now where my nerves are frayed, for what is probably due to the following reasons (in no particular order):


- I haven't had a holiday in over two years. All studies show that this is not good.

- My wife is battling Lyme disease; it's difficult for me to witness the sweetest, kindest, most thoughtful & empathetic person on the planet suffer with no end in sight.

- This has had an effect on our social life; we haven't been able to go anywhere or do anything or have friends over for 1.5 years. We humans are social creatures, so this adds to the mix.

- In an area already over-saturated with sign shops, another one recently opened up here.

- The steady stream of customers who have no respect for my expertise & knowledge about sign design, prefering to tell me how it's done. I think we all share that frustration.


On that last point, it's amazing to me how, in the sign business, there's a very large chair waiting empty for people to plant themselves in where they then dictate how the tradesman does their job! Where else does this happen? I had a woman emailing me yesterday with all of the text that she wants on a sandwich board (it was like the page of a book); and when I suggested that it ought be pared down to be an effective sign, she got all huffy and said "But that's what I want to say! I've seen other signs with this much wording!" I wanted to freekin' scream.

And I just had the classic experience this week of designing a boat name (with graphic) after gathering all of the pertinent information, to then have the customer insist on seeing it done this way and that way, only to come back to choose my original design after exploring and wasting time with their retarded ideas.



I need a vacation.

 

[Sign Up Graphics]

Sign Up Graphics

 

[boxerbay]

Too harsh, No need to explain yourself on why you need a deposit. Would be more
professional to just give her a ballpark figure based on what you have in mind of doing.
Once they agree to the price then go into design deposits....

ditto

should've just called her and closed the deal with CC digits over the phone.

 

[Custom_Grafx]

Sorry to hear that Colin. It does definitely sound like you need a little break. What's stopping you?

 

[Colin]

Kinda tough to leave my wife to take care of the house/yard etc all alone. She can't travel due to the Lyme disease.

 

[Custom_Grafx]

Sorry, I was just reading about it then. I hadn't heard of Lyme disease till now. It must be quite serious in that case. Still though, you gotta find a way to at least mentally take a break hey? Where there's a will... there's a sign maker!

 

[Gino]

Colin.........

Sorry to hear of your wife's health issue. I'll tend to the deposit and drawing portion later, but first I have another question on your wife's condition.

I contracted Lyme Disease many years ago and have had no ill effects..... and now again I've contracted it recently and just got off some heavy antibiotics which were unpleasant, but now behind me. My stepson has had it for years and I have an aunt that has had it for about 45 years. Other than her age, she has no real bad side effects.

I do realize there are 3 basic levels of it. Several friends of ours have both the second and third levels of Lyme's. Although they have some problems, they basically can do almost anything they want. Vacations, eating habits and just about nothing stops them... that I know of.

Heck, my aunt has the most severe type and she still goes BallRoom Dancing two or three times a week, plus run a business. She's about 75 now.

Have your doctors done everything possible for your wife or has she had it without knowing it and it's deeply set into her system ??



Just curious, not being accusatory...... or anything other than concerned.

 

[SignManiac]

I contracted Lymes disease about twenty years ago. First symptoms were diagnosed as stage three. They put me on mega doses of antibiotics. I had bells palsy for ten weeks and lost forty pounds really fast. I lost my short term memory which I still have not regained. Suffered severe joint pain which I still have today. It affects everyone different. Mine kicked me on my butt, but I'm still going strong. Hope she gets better.

 

[Colin]

I contracted Lyme Disease many years ago and have had no ill effects..... and now again I've contracted it recently and just got off some heavy antibiotics which were unpleasant, but now behind me.

First of all, I have to ask: How do you know it was/is "Lyme?" How were you, your step-son and Aunt diagnosed? The long list of symptoms can present as numerous other health issues, and many people who claim to have Lyme actually don't. Lyme is acquired through a tick bite. My wife has "Rickettsiae" (aka: Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever) which is one of the various tick-acquired (bacterial) infections (T.A.I.) which comes under the umbrella of what we call "Lyme".

I do realize there are 3 basic levels of it.

I've been steeped in this issue for the last year & a half, and I've never heard of this "3 levels" thing. What I've learned is that if the bacterial infection is caught right away (within the first week or so) and hit with a heavy, sustained course of antibitoics, it will be killed. If not, it will become chronic and very difficult to kill once it gets ensconsed into one's body.

Several friends of ours have both the second and third levels of Lyme's.

How were they diagnosed?

Although they have some problems, they basically can do almost anything they want. Vacations, eating habits and just about nothing stops them... that I know of.

Everyone has a different severity level experience with tic acquired infections. If they do actually have a T.A.I, they may be some of the lucky few who have an easier time with it.

When you have the time, read the blog of this poor 17 yr old guy:

http://www.rileylymebegone.blogspot.com/

Have your doctors done everything possible for your wife or has she had it without knowing it and it's deeply set into her system?

Things are very different here in Canada regarding this issue. The people at the helm of the Centre for Disease Control (CDC) have historically been (and still are) in a state of denial about Lyme Disease (it's not called "Lymes"). They insist that it's extremely rare, or non-existant (BS); they claim that all doctors are fully knowledgable on the matter (BS); but the most important thing here in Canada that prevents the all-important EARLY DIAGNOSIS is the blood test that the CDC insists on using. It's called the ELISA test, and it simply doesn't work. Getting a positive result on the ELISA test is like winning the Lottery. But they love it because it is cheap. And once you start to peel back the layers on this subject, you find that the CDC is no longer really doing science (where you follow the evidence no matter what), they are doing politics and economics, and it gets very ugly. If they were to suddenly announce that they are going to abandon the ELISA test and use the proper test that is used in the U.S., they would essentially be saying "Gee, I guess we were wrong for the last few decades - sorry!" and they'd be setting themselves up for liability.

So the way things are here now, when you go to your doctor, the only tool he is permitted to use to determine whether you have a tick acquired infection is the ELISA test, and when it comes back negative (which it will), you are utterly screwed, for he is now not permitted to treat you with a course of antibiotics, for he is not permitted to go outside the guidelines of the medical system. If he does, he will risk losing his licence, and he knows this, so the CDC has the doctors scared to death about this issue. Most doctors here are not Lyme literate anyways. It's a very complex bacterial infection, unlike others.

We discovered a private doctor here (yes, had to pay privately) who has been dealing with T.A.I.s for decades (he actually lived in the Eastern US where there's much more Lyme cases), and he has her on a specialized course of treatment based on what's called "The Marshall Protocol". It's basically a course of low-dose antibiotics, taken in a pulsed fashion (every few days). There have been many (chronic) people who have done the traditional heavy course of antibiotics only to have it not work and the Lyme Disease symptoms come back again. Again, once it becomes chronic, it's a whole other ball game.

The go-to web site here in Canada for Lyme Disease is here:

http://www.canlyme.com/

 

[CanuckSigns]

Things are very different here in Canada regarding this issue. The people at the helm of the Centre for Disease Control (CDC) have historically been (and still are) in a state of denial about Lyme Disease (it's not called "Lymes"). They insist that it's extremely rare, or non-existant (BS); they claim that all doctors are fully knowledgable on the matter (BS); but the most important thing here in Canada that prevents the all-important EARLY DIAGNOSIS is the blood test that the CDC insists on using. It's called the ELISA test, and it simply doesn't work. Getting a positive result on the ELISA test is like winning the Lottery. But they love it because it is cheap. And once you start to peel back the layers on this subject, you find that the CDC is no longer really doing science (where you follow the evidence no matter what), they are doing politics and economics, and it gets very ugly. If they were to suddenly announce that they are going to abandon the ELISA test and use the proper test that is used in the U.S., they would essentially be saying "Gee, I guess we were wrong for the last few decades - sorry!" and they'd be setting themselves up for liability.

So the way things are here now, when you go to your doctor, the only tool he is permitted to use to determine whether you have a tic acquired infection is the ELISA test, and when it comes back negative (which it will), you are utterly screwed, for he is now not permitted to treat you with a course of antibiotics, for he is not permitted to go outside the guidelines of the medical system. If he does, he will risk losing his licence, and he knows this, so the CDC has the doctors scared to death about this issue. Most doctors here are not Lyme literate anyways. It's a very complex bacterial infection, unlike others.

We discovered a private doctor here (yes, had to pay privately) who has been dealing with T.A.I.s for decades (he actually lived in the Eastern US where there's much more Lyme cases), and he has her on a specialized course of treatment based on what's called "The Marshall Protocol". It's basically a course of low-dose antibiotics, taken in a pulsed fashion (every few days). There have been many (chronic) people who have done the traditional heavy course of antibiotics only to have it not work and the Lyme Disease symptoms come back again. Again, once it becomes chronic, it's a whole other ball game.

The go-to web site here in Canada for Lyme Disease is here:

http://www.canlyme.com/

I didn't know this! That sucks, hopefully things change here for the better! Is this going to affect your wife for the rest of her life, or is there some hope she will recover?

My thoughts are with you and your family

 

[Colin]

I didn't know this! That sucks, hopefully things change here for the better!

Ya, if you ever get bitten by a tick, run......don't walk....RUN to your doctor and insist on a course of antibiotics. If he/she refuses, find another doctor until you get it. Only a small percentage of tics carry the bacterial infection, but it's not worth the risk waiting to see if you develop the symptoms, for then it is too late. The other sign of an infected tic bite is what's called the "Bullseye rash", but only about half of people experience that. Those that don't, are really battling the medical system.

Is this going to affect your wife for the rest of her life, or is there some hope she will recover?

There's no guarantees, so all we can do is our best, and be hopeful. She's been on this particular course of meds for about a year now with no improvement, but her continued pains, burning and other symptoms are claimed to be signs of a "herx" reaction, which is the bacteria dying off. We hope this is the case, but it is tempting to abandon it and try the traditional, heavy course of antibiotics favoured by some specialists like (retired) Doctor Murakami.

My thoughts are with you and your family

Thanks.


**There's been a film made about Lyme Disease called "Under Our Skin". It has been on TV a few times, and can likely be rented or viewed online somewhere.

 

[Gino]

All the people I was speaking about were diagnosed by doctors. You may not self diagnose oneself and get a prescription for drugs. Some are still under doctor’s treatments. Once you see this mark [below], you pretty much know you’ve been bitten in the last two weeks or so. That’s what I’ve always seen, but here in the states….. in order for a doctor to give you antibiotics, he/she must first see you, examine you…..then they are allowed to give treatment. They don’t mind giving out the medicine if documented. They are trying to get better counts and familiar with this rather newly diagnosed disease. It’s only been being diagnosed for maybe 35 or so years, I think. Before that and some still presently will diagnose it as something else which has similar sysmptoms. There are two schools of thought, once you contract it you will always have it and for some it goes dormant, while others feel at many of the levels, it can be knocked out of your system for good. Unfortunately like SM mentioned, some can never be completely gotten rid of and you’ll have to put up with it for the rest of your life.

You mention 1-1/2 years. I had it 20 some years ago for the first time and actually two more times since, that I know of. Each time I went on antibiotics and was told I shouldn’t have to worry. This last time, my doctor seemed very up on the disease itself and explained lotsa things to me and about it. If Lyme disease is left untreated, it may progress in stages from mild symptoms to serious, long-term disabilities. There are three stages of Lyme disease: early localized, early disseminated, and late persistent. I don’t know how to do that link stuff so if you go here…… WebMD.com and look for Lyme-disease-symptoms you can read up on this part.

One of the easiest ways to get Lymes is through deer ticks which are smaller than regular ticks [which don’t carry the disease at all] in the woodsie areas. we have quite the cross section of animals… all which can carry and transport the little critters. As you remember I was trying to get rid of the chipmunk population in my area. That was one of my major reasons. They carry. Besides deer….. groundhogs, rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks, dogs, cats, opossums, raccoons, and just about any other animal carry these deer ticks… even the turkeys around our house can carry them. They jump and fall on you from trees, tall grass and any other method they can use to get to warm skin. They seek the refuge of warm areas and human bodies have that without all the fur involved, so we are indeed their favorite targets.

As for the testing, you can’t test for Lyme’s for at least 6 weeks. If you do, you’re gonna come back negative, not having the disease and then not taking the medicine you probably need. Down here, or at least where I live, as long as they document… they can administer medicine, immediately. I was on twice a day for 3 weeks a very strong antibiotic. It tore the crap [literally] out of my insides. I had to be careful where I went as to having to be close to a restroom at all times. It’s only in the last few days, that I feel better.

Like I said, many people I know have had it and still have it. They have all been diagnosed by doctors. It’s the only way you can be treated. Unfortunately, some don’t know they have it until it’s been in their system for too long a period. I don’t believe it’s in my system anymore and like I said, your wife with the right doctor [which looks like you’re on your way]…. could possibly make her problems go away to the point you guys could live a more comfortably life and do things together like long weekends or mini-vacation day trips here and there.

There’s more to this disease I know, but I was just covering over the broad topic itself and trying to help you see hope down the road.



I’ll get to your drawing and deposit part later, eh.

 

[Colin]

In addition: One can be bitten and infected by what's called a "nymph" tick (jeuvenille) and it's the size of a poppy seed, so you might not even know you've been bit.

 

[Colin]

Back to the O/P subject:

CSDD: I watched that video you offered, and while I can see how a "Contract" is a very wise thing to have in place, it seemed like that audience was high-end designers and web designers who's jobs might be in the tens of thousands of dollars. I can't help but wonder how such a contract could be utilized for us sign people who are usually dealing with smaller jobs. I imagine that one would come off as an overly officious prick if asking a customer to sign such a contract for designing & producing a $300.00 banner.

*shrug*