Talk about Avery Film

[jkdbjj]

So just finished the Avery Wrap workshop. I came away with a somewhat mixed idea about Avery products.
Let me explain.
Justin Pate, a renowned wrap installer who currently works with both 3m and Avery. Just Avery in the states and 3m in Europe. He was our instructor.

I admittedly did question him about Avery's past, based a lot of information I here people discussing on signs 101. The reason I asked him about it, is he said he had the choice from Mutoh which vinyl company to bring on board for this class and hands down he chose Avery. He then went on the explain unique things about certain Avery products that no one else has (according to him). So I just nodded and listened.

Later on in the class when we got hands on he demonstrated some unique aspects and then we were able to put our hands on it. I was more then surprised at how much easier it was to use then Oracal and even 3m.

I asked the instructor if has any experience with Oracals new 3751, and he had not. Nor have I. I would love to compare the 3751 to Avery's 1005 easy apply RS with the 1360 lam.

Now, all the people who hate Avery on principle of history they have, is that main issue? Cause the product seems easier then anything I have tried. Much more forgiving as well.

 

[jkdbjj]

I will also clarify we were using all Supercast Film.
It was explained because of the repositionable technology, most failures are installer error. It has to be pushed pretty hard, and post heating has to be done at proper temperature for specific areas.
I realize that is all basic for most of you all, but I have personally witnessed many installers especially towards the end of a wrap get sloppy, and probably not post heat correctly, with a thermometer and be anal about it.
I also have witnessed films being overheated, over stretched, which will cause failure.

The interesting thing is during class very little heat was ever used, no primer, and most bumpers, recesses, corners were installed with just technique. It opened my eyes to just how under trained even the most experienced installers can be.

Just sharing my experience at class and looking for feedback on the topics at hand.

How many here use primer or something similar? How many use heat almost all the time on wraps? Just looking for a general idea here.

 

[Joe Diaz]

It's the main issue for us. And it darn well should be. Isn't that enough? When we mess up, we don't leave our clients holding the bag. We make things right. We expect the same from our distributors, dealers, manufactures, etc... In this case it didn't just effect our relationship with Avery, It effected many relationships with our clients too. And it's not just about the cost of the film... or the job even. When you work hard to build a reputation of doing quality, long lasting work, and the materials you use fail, your reputation is damaged. It's difficult to repair that damage. You would expect those that make the material to do the right thing. They didn't, we did, It cost us.

Keep in mind Avery had vinyl failures more than once, that I can remember. Who's to say it won't happen again? And you know what? even if it did keep happening, if they owned up to it, that would be one thing. Perhaps THEIR reputation might not have been damaged to the extent that it has.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Oh and the installer error is BS. At least it was back then when they attempted to use that excuse before. When it happened to us it was before repositional technology anyway. Material that worked fine once, and were being installed the exact same way years prior to these problems, all the sudden just started failing on signs and vehicles and banners and you name it. The vinyl was shrinking on the rolls a few weeks after being purchased.

 

[Fred Weiss]

It's the main issue for us. And it darn well should be. Isn't that enough? When we mess up, we don't leave our clients holding the bag. We make things right. We expect the same from our distributors, dealers, manufactures, etc... In this case it didn't just effect our relationship with Avery, It effected many relationships with our clients too. And it's not just about the cost of the film... or the job even. When you work hard to build a reputation of doing quality, long lasting work, and the materials you use fail, your reputation is damaged. It's difficult to repair that damage. You would expect those that make the material to do the right thing. They didn't, we did, It cost us.

Keep in mind Avery had vinyl failures more than once, that I can remember. Who's to say it won't happen again? And you know what? even if it did keep happening, if they owned up to it, that would be one thing. Perhaps THEIR reputation might not have been damaged to the extent that it has.

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Damn Straight Joe!

 

[formanek]

You all need to friggin' give up on the Avery whining from years ago. Move on. Don't use it. Personally I have used it for a few years and done over 40 semi trailers with ZERO issues. It's like Ford vs. Chevy. Lutheran vs. Catholic. People have their choice and that what is great. Use what you feel is best for you and don't ask people on this board because even the higher ups will complain. That is why there is more than one product out there. People can use what they want. Maybe people should never trust Harley Davidson either because they have left a TON of people hanging including dealers and owners over the years. But that is another story.

 

[jkdbjj]

Ok, so I don't know all of that.
Performance wise, it handled today better then anything I have used. So without knowing the drama, I would be inclined to think "wow" this company has their **** together and has a product that works better then most others.

However, seeing I now know some of the drama from this site, you can see I started this thread saying I have mixed feelings. Just being honest.

Are you sure Avery didn't fix "any" of their wrong doing? Did they pay out anything at all?
I am also curious if a class action was brought forth? If not, why, if they were plainly liable?

Thanks for the information Joe.

 

[jkdbjj]

You all need to friggin' give up on the Avery whining from years ago. Move on. Don't use it. Personally I have used it for a few years and done over 40 semi trailers with ZERO issues. It's like Ford vs. Chevy. Lutheran vs. Catholic. People have their choice and that what is great. Use what you feel is best for you and don't ask people on this board because even the higher ups will complain. That is why there is more than one product out there. People can use what they want. Maybe people should never trust Harley Davidson either because they have left a TON of people hanging including dealers and owners over the years. But that is another story.

I think I agree, but I'd like to learn more about the old issue.

 

[formanek]

I think I agree, but I'd like to learn more about the old issue.

Do a search. Plenty of "talk" of it in the past.

 

[Mike Paul]

I've started threads and posted about the Avery issue and their business practices many many times.
Avery can't be trusted at all and when it happens again the end user will get screwed again; just look at their history...

 

[jkdbjj]

So no 3m, no Avery, so Oracal is King?
This sounds all a lil emotional to be honest.

Again, was there a class action, and if not why?

 

[Fred Weiss]

Ok, so I don't know all of that.
Performance wise, it handled today better then anything I have used. So without knowing the drama, I would be inclined to think "wow" this company has their **** together and has a product that works better then most others.

However, seeing I now know some of the drama from this site, you can see I started this thread saying I have mixed feelings. Just being honest.

Are you sure Avery didn't fix "any" of their wrong doing? Did they pay out anything at all?
I am also curious if a class action was brought forth? If not, why, if they were plainly liable?

Thanks for the information Joe.

They stonewalled for more than a year and continued to sell the defective stock until they were overwhelmed with pictures of it on sites like Letterville as well as complaints from highly respected and experienced customers. They then proceeded to deal with the issue individually ... customer by customer and were able to avoid a class action product liability lawsuit.

They are counting on new customers being willing to buy their products. They know that many who were active in the craft seven and eight years ago will not. This has nothing to do with the current product line. It has everything to do with how they conducted themselves while their customers had their reputations damaged as well as a considerable amount of repair work and expense that was not appropriately compensated for in the cases I know of.

Avery is a company that put all their customer's reputations at risk while clearly demonstrating that all they cared about was their own bottom line. I for one will absolutely never forgive that breach of trust and will do nothing to add to their bottom line.

 

[2 see signz]

So just finished the Avery Wrap workshop. I came away with a somewhat mixed idea about Avery products.

other than that....what did you think of the course...i did it here in aus. and enjoyed it, two years with Avery and its been fine for me so far...

 

[Mike Paul]

You all need to friggin' give up on the Avery whining from years ago. Move on. Don't use it. Personally I have used it for a few years and done over 40 semi trailers with ZERO issues. It's like Ford vs. Chevy. Lutheran vs. Catholic. People have their choice and that what is great. Use what you feel is best for you and don't ask people on this board because even the higher ups will complain. That is why there is more than one product out there. People can use what they want. Maybe people should never trust Harley Davidson either because they have left a TON of people hanging including dealers and owners over the years. But that is another story.

And if or when it fails they will offer to reimburse you $8-$10 an hour for removal...shop rate right? LOL

 

[jkdbjj]

They stonewalled for more than a year and continued to sell the defective stock until they were overwhelmed with pictures of it on sites like Letterville as well as complaints from highly respected and experienced customers. They then proceeded to deal with the issue individually ... customer by customer and were able to avoid a class action product liability lawsuit.

They are counting on new customers being willing to buy their products. They know that many who were active in the craft seven and eight years ago will not. This has nothing to do with the current product line. It has everything to do with how they conducted themselves while their customers had their reputations damaged as well as a considerable amount of repair work and expense that was not appropriately compensated for in the cases I know of.

Avery is a company that put all their customer's reputations at risk while clearly demonstrating that all they cared about was their own bottom line. I for one will absolutely never forgive that breach of trust and will do nothing to add to their bottom line.

Thanks Fred. I can understand that. What do you think of business that continue to support Avery? Just curious. Do you think they have no principles?

 

[jkdbjj]

other than that....what did you think of the course...i did it here in aus. and enjoyed it, two years with Avery and its been fine for me so far...

Well cert test tomorrow. I'll probably fail (like Avery did) just kidding.

Justin has been great and always helpful. The thing is, wrapping is either easier then I thought, or the right material and techniques make it easier then I thought.
Can't wait to try the Oracal stuff so I can see first hand which works better for me.
We have two sedans and a cargo van. Also had a trailer with lots of rivets.

 

[jasonx]

Don't know about in the states but Avery in Australia has always been stand up had your back when you've had issues and be open about any that arises.

Everyone has issues its how you deal with them that maters. It seems like in the past in the states this didn't happen and rightly so people should have their opinion on it.

I've had more issues with another company and defective products which were never resolved by the manufacturer and a lot of finger pointing. Can see my previous posts about this.

 

[Joe Diaz]

So no 3m, no Avery, so Oracal is King?
This sounds all a lil emotional to be honest.

No it sounds like Oracal is doing right by their customers. So far anyway.

Look I'm sure things get lost in translation on these forums. So I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, if you say you have "mixed feelings". But you sound like your doubtful of what some of us are saying. I'm certainly not going to bend over backwards and try to convince you, formanek or anyone else that our company and many other sign shops had a real nightmare of a time dealing with this company and their products. Do the research. After you're done, if you still think we are making mountains out of molehills, then fine, do your thing. Keep in mind we on this forum won't benefit or be harmed by your decision. Our point of view is unconditional. Your distributors, the folks teaching wrap classes... they are salesmen trying to sell a product.

 

[tsgstl]

I don't use Avery because of the DIY sign kits they sell for the general consumer. I used Oracal exclusively for everything until I saw how it held up on my first few jobs.
I really like the Arlon rep and I have used their colored vinyl for years.