The $50 4x4

[TheSnowman]

I can beat all of that. The local T-Shirt guy (he's a moron that stole the customer list from the previous place he worked) decided he'd get into the sign biz. He basically destroyed the apparel pricing in our town if you talk to his competitors by working for free. I was wondering why I didn't get any calls anymore for any work at the schools...he's doing anything banner related that the schools want for FREE if you order your shirts from him, which he's giving away....at least so they tell me.

I drove by the baseball field and counted last week...(31) 4' X 6' banners....at free or at least he's working for free. That last job I quoted I lost to him was a 4' X 8' banner at $2 sq. ft. that included artwork, grommets, and the whole deal. It's unreal. Even his "paying customers" are getting stuff for free if you ask me.

I'm thinkin' about subbing everything out to him so all i have to do is make money since he'll work for free.

 

[GAC05]

"I am ostracized?"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ostracized

Kinda fits the narrative - if I squint a little while reading....

wayne k
guam usa

Apologize for having nothing constructive to add to this thread

 

[iSign]

addy, if people gave you crap when you showed up, it's because you asked for it, more ways then I care to remember right now... one on one... if you made a lame post, or showed a lame design, or gave a lame excuse for your thread posting computer virus posing as you... you get your crap based on the seeds you had sown...


but if the day you've been waiting and waiting for has finally arrived, and you think you see a sign guy missing an opportunity to be as brilliant as you want to look like you are... and then you think you understand another sign guy taking an opposing view...
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suddenly your broker-ass ego is jumping on the Techman bandwagon thinking that a $50 4x4 is a good idea, just because you know where to buy one for $30...

...it ain't a good idea, it's the way our careers are being run in the ground..

...hell, even FREE signs, as part of a calculated multi-pronged marketing campaign is far better, because at least they ain't gonna consider his offer with a smile, and then go down the street & backstab him, telling the next guy, "hey, can ya beat this greedy *%#@! up the road?"

Just to be clear, Tech's idea makes great sense... but there is a lot more to his approach then you chiming in that a $20 markup is fine on an item we're used to selling for 200%-400% more then this damn thread has 'em going for...

...but sure, post dumb ideas all ya want... it's when that snotty 'tude lumps all of "us" into whatever sign-guy mentality that you suddenly thought you recognized a superiority over... that is the crap you're getting heat for now dude... not because you wanna help run the industry in the ground.. because you are too dumb to notice yourself willing to do it, and then standing on the chair beating your chest with pride over figuring it out...

 

[HulkSmash]

 

[signswi]

And yet anytime one of us here on the forums brings up differentiating yourself by competing on something OTHER than price ten idiots jump out of the woodwork saying that signs are only products and you can only compete on price blah blah.

Kind of fun watching a mass extinction.

 

[Deaton Design]

Adtechia, I dont give a crap how you paint it, Im not selling 4x4 nothings for 50.00. Thats the kind of thing Im facing here now with everyone thinking the sign business is a get rich quick scheme. Trouble is, they want to get rich 5.00 at a time. I wouldnt sell them for that even if I could get someone with a flatbed to do them. Its bad enough that people are starting to think that signmaking is the easiest thing in world. Im not a broker like you, I actually do all my work, with the help of my son, in a small shop. We still do hand lettered stuff, still cut vinyl, and occasionally do some outsourced digital stuff. If you and others want to give it away, thats fine. I aint.

 

[Gino]

John.....

I don't think you should give it away for $50. I don't think I should either.... and I don't. My input was about a promotion I did and felt might be a good move. I took a gamble and it paid off for me. I got far more money out of my deal than I could've.... had I charged regular pricing for 19pcs. 18" x 24" 1-sided golf signs. We usually get around $35 to $40 dollars each for these things. Cost me next to nothing and I get a ton of work going well into the thousands of dollars.

Again, this is not our normal routine, but any shop that can produce signs..... 'in-house' has a whole nother advantage. They can control the quality and that's what we sell. Fine quality, latest technology at a competitive price. However, we.... the sign makers of the country have that lovely blessing where we don't have to outsource 100% of what we do. We have the know-how and the technology to produce it ourselves.

Those 4' x 4's would probably go for about $150 to $165 each in our shop. If they insisted on $50 each, I'd say good luck to ya and see ya next year when all of these fall apart for ya. Even though we have the ability to undercut all of our competition, we don't. We wholesale for good prices, but for the most part... I pick and choose who I want to give a little better discount to on their retail signs.

In fact, we give a better discount to s101-ers than we do our local sign shops. They don't know it, but that's how we feel about it. ​

 

[Deaton Design]

I totally understand what you mean Gino. And your idea was great. I live in area where things are totally different. You do x amount of work for someone hoping to possibly get something out of it later, and you dont. Its really cuthroat here. No one cares anymore either what it looks like. I had a guy call me a couple weeks ago, said he wanted a very professional look for his new business. We talked, he went somewhere else and got what I thought was a very unprofessional sign. Its that attitude and the people that call every day wanting a price for something, without even telling me what it is they want, thats getting to me.

 

[HulkSmash]

In my part of the country $50 for a 4x4 is not even worth it. hell - wholesale we wouldn't even be that low. If i had a flatbed, i wouldn't even do it that low. The cost of ink, time to
lay,cut,lam, trim... no thankyou

I do see techs point, and see how it could lay way to future jobs. But if you low ball them the first time, they're going to want the cheap way in every job they throw your way. You'll work hard, and not make much.

We had a company we had to get rid of, told them we couldn't do it at the prices we were anymore. Let's say we did 10k work a month for them. After all costs it wasnt even worth it.. i made maybe 900 off of the 10k.

not worth it for me.

 

[Gino]

I totally understand what you mean Gino. And your idea was great. I live in area where things are totally different. You do x amount of work for someone hoping to possibly get something out of it later, and you dont. Its really cuthroat here. No one cares anymore either what it looks like. I had a guy call me a couple weeks ago, said he wanted a very professional look for his new business. We talked, he went somewhere else and got what I thought was a very unprofessional sign. Its that attitude and the people that call every day wanting a price for something, without even telling me what it is they want, thats getting to me.

Perhaps what would be better than giving in or turning work away is to edumacate your customers.

Many times, when someone comes in asking about this or that..... you must take the bull by the horns and take over the conversation. This is not to say you dictate what colors, how many letters and that kind of baloney, but ask them what their needs really are. What is it they really want ?? A cheap sign or the best advertising their buck can buy ??

Sure, I can make you that cheap sign like so-and-so down the street, but do you really want to keep coming back here every year buying new signs.... for the same sponsors ?? I have a deal, where you can get several years out of your signs and go on charging your sponsors a reduced rate for up coming years. Give it three years and then re-new your signs with us and we'll re-make the ones that need fixing up. Some might last past the next 3 years. However, I just want an exclusive that no one else can supply their own signs. I will be your only provider. This way Ill give you what you need, for a price you can afford about once every three years. So, I get $95 per sign up front, but you don't need my services for another three years. You actually get a free sign every third year with this math. Suggest they take the signs down and store them. Keep as much work off your plate as possible.

Explain how if they ask you for a cheap sign and someone else offers cheaper..... who is really saving money with the headaches that are bound to follow ??

 

[skyhigh]

I'm gonna add a little twist to this one... and probably piss some of you non-believers off some more.
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Before someone says, you pay 250k for a machine to do things cheaper... yeah, that's really smart........ remember, I paid for my machine cash. I don't buy what I can't afford. Now I have an advantage and I use it. It's called a 'Loss Leader' and it works.

Why would a "PROMOTION" piss anyone off, unless you were indeed suggesting that you would sell the product cheaper because your production cost is quite a bit lower (ignoring the 245k above the cost of a cutter)?

No offense Gino, but I had to read your "follow-up" posts to get a handle on what you were actually saying.


John & Stacy.... I wouldn't lose any sleep over Techman's whine. I surely didn't read anything that sounded like a personal attack. While I think Gino's idea is brilliant (because it sounded like something I would do...haha), I think Tech's idea is a dud. No offense Tech (but I'm sure you won't see it that way).

 

[Si Allen]

Some of you people have some very big eogs that are easily bruised!

Techman was probably answering ddarlak and his negative comment!

For those of you who don't personally know techman ... he is a great guy and has a good sense of humor.

Yes! He does work hard ... but look at what he has accomplished in 5 years! He lost everything due to Katrina and moved up north with nothing but debt!
Now he is sitting where most of you would love to be ... debt free and a paid for house !

 

[Locals Find!]

Adtechia, I dont give a crap how you paint it, Im not selling 4x4 nothings for 50.00. Thats the kind of thing Im facing here now with everyone thinking the sign business is a get rich quick scheme. Trouble is, they want to get rich 5.00 at a time. I wouldnt sell them for that even if I could get someone with a flatbed to do them. Its bad enough that people are starting to think that signmaking is the easiest thing in world. Im not a broker like you, I actually do all my work, with the help of my son, in a small shop. We still do hand lettered stuff, still cut vinyl, and occasionally do some outsourced digital stuff. If you and others want to give it away, thats fine. I aint.

Let me clarify my position on this. It seems to have gotten confused by some people.

My thoughts on this is were talking about a school. Not your normal retail client. I give discounts to schools all the time because, they are usually running on donations from parents or other businesses. The money they save goes back to benefit the children. So if I do a job like this at $50 each and get to see all the businesses in person buying the signs, I am getting paid for doing the work, I get to know I helped out the kids in that school, and I am scoring some Free Promotion out of the deal.

I don't see how I am screwing anything up. I am not talking about giving these away to Construction companies, real estate developers or anyone else at this price. They will pay my normal prices. Which are much higher.

 

[Si Allen]

 

[HulkSmash]

Why would you give school discounts? They don't give your children discounts because you have low income, they dont give a damn about how much money you make, they'll fleece you until the dogs come home.

A school called me to price a wrap.

they wanted to pay $5,000 for............
2 30+foot school buses and 2 short buses. When dealing with schools they're always going to try and bargain, call non profit and shop around until
they find the cheapest.

Needless to say they found someone to do it, 6 months later, they were in my shop and we had to redo them at my price that i quoted.

 

[Bigdawg]

I wasn't trying to dis Tech at all personally... his idea just wouldn't fly here.

And I know John's market - I know it well. He's right. No amount of customer education is going to change it. I totally agree with educating the customer... but some of y'all should have a little faith that we know what our market is like better than you do... the market in PA is different from the FL market... and KY is definitely not the same as either.

I'm not slamming anyone's idea... but I'm feeling a bit of condescending attitude from some of you towards those of us that didn't just jump up and agree, that says "you really just don't know what your market is like... and if you would just listen to those of us that know better... our ideas would work."

Baloney.

 

[Gino]

Quite true, Stacy. One of my biggest pet peeves with people always asking pricing and how much for this-this & that.

It's good to know one's own home based market and what it will bear. However, when someone regardless of their status is upset.... isn't it our [anyone's] duty to try to offer up suggestions as to what works here, there or anywhere and see if it might work in your town, John's town or even Addie's part of the village ??

If my posts were condescending, then I'm sorry, but to John. Anyone else, that's just too bad. They were directed towards John's predicament and his alone. It's up to him if he wants to use any or part of my ideas or anyone else's ideas. No one is shoving anything down his throat. He's a big boy and quite a strong one from what I hear, but if someone else can take anything from this thread.... all the better.

To me, it's getting a little tiring of everyone copping an attitude as soon as someone words something a little off color or out of line. Its not about how the message is delivered, but just plain getting the message out there. Wouldn't it be neat, if someone just once came here.... started a thread and it fell together like bread & butter and no one argued or made fun of each other, or even gave out tongue lashings......................................

:Oops: my bad.... this is an open forum on the internet where all the hot dogs hang out................ ​

 

[premiercolour]

Thank you pat..

There is always 100 reasons or excuses not to do something.
There is always one who will take it and tun with it for a goal.

On the other hand...

That's 100 bux a sheet for coro. So what. We made some money. And we get access at least once to the bizz owner. And likely over 90% will use them signs again next year. So we get to talk to him again,, OOps,, we have to make a few new ones. That's even better. That's the hidden goody. We are getting new leads as well.

We do not care about that $50 bux, We care about the lead. Its a good lead. And if done right those leads will always carry over to a higher income in the long run.

50 bux x 20 = 1,000 bux. Plus some good leads and a chance to meet all those bizz owners at their expense. We didnt spend a dime advertising or a minute calling them. All this from a FREE tip on a website...

Let me point out something...
I moved here with no income, no prospects, no friends, no home, huge cc debt. Nothing to lose every thing to gain.

Five years later almost to the day.
My house is paid off, my car is paid off. I am technically out of debt. Wife is planning to buy a new car in a few months cash. I have a cnc router paid for and making money. In the process of building another.

Gos bless us all.

Very good ideas. Correct not one size fits all. Perhaps a lot of us don't like the idea of "cash" this and "pay off" that in this down economy situation.