This should be fun. :o

[tulsagraphics]

Jake's Fireworks requested that I re-do a sign at one of their locations, and sent "this" material to their store. I assume it's a really basic calendared film.

I don't think there's a way to recover these old panels (8 years old). They're terrible.

They used single-sided ACM for this job (back side is silver). How well does vinyl stick to the silver side? (specifically this "IM3203X" series)
I've got a RollsRoller, so the graphics install should be easy (after flattening all those screw hole piercings, of course)

I'd rather use new ACM panels, but wanted to get y'alls thoughts first before I suggest that to them.

 

[MikePro]

i'd prefer new panels too, but if you want to save some cost for the client you can just upcharge the labor needed to remove/regraphic/reinstall

might be able to simply apply new graphics to the backside of the existing panels, and just hit both sides of the holes with a countersink before beating up your rollertable.
...assuming the panels are flat enough to salvage, of course.

 

[Gino]

The panels SHOULD not be re-used, as it is kaput. I have never used supplied vinyls or substrates. You cannot control the quality, therefore unless they only need a 3 month guarantee, step a side and let someone else do it.

A different approach would be to just do a face lift in your shop on new acm panels, build a small frame of wood on the existing signs, missing all the screws and mounting to it, if the old panels can take the added weight. What weight/thickness are the original panels ?? I wouldn't use any less than 6mm or you'll have waves.

See, now here's a second job where that lift you're thinking about would really come in handy.

edit: that vinyl is nothing I would wanna use and stand behind it.

 

[signheremd]

that vinyl is 5year Intermediate. Judging by the UV damage to the existing panels, I would say it will need to be replaced in 5 years and it will be cracked and baked dead. Vinyl will stick to the aluminum sides of the panels - just need to clean with Windex and follow with Isopropyl Alcohol to remove any waxes, oils, grease. Problems I have with the job include the mess this will make on your RollsRoller table, the cutout for the light not being symmetrical, and warrantying the work. I get that they want to do this on the cheap, but looks like the sign will have to endure the harshest of UV conditions. At the very least, I would use a polymeric Intermediate with a Cast UV laminate. Briteline CastWrap gloss UV laminate is actually pretty good and is a 7 year product (supposedly a 3M). Grimco - doesn't make their own vinyl, but instead has brand agreements to use Arlon and 3M materials (maybe others), much like aftermarket car suspension parts are mostly all made by one company and branded differently.

Grimco | Briteline WrapCAST Overlaminate Film - 2 mil

www.grimco.com

 

[tulsagraphics]

The panels SHOULD not be re-used, as it is kaput. I have never used supplied vinyls or substrates. You cannot control the quality, therefore unless they only need a 3 month guarantee, step a side and let someone else do it.

A different approach would be to just do a face lift in your shop on new acm panels, build a small frame of wood on the existing signs, missing all the screws and mounting to it, if the old panels can take the added weight. What weight/thickness are the original panels ?? I wouldn't use any less than 6mm or you'll have waves.

See, now here's a second job where that lift you're thinking about would really come in handy.

edit: that vinyl is nothing I would wanna use and stand behind it.

They used 3mm, but everything has a plywood backing. Appears to be pretty solid. I'm guessing that's why they started off with a 3ft wide panel on the ends -- to offset the plywood seams.

And yep... more stuff for a lift. These lift jobs just keep rolling in. Hopefully I can get one secured in the next 2 weeks.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Rule is not to reuse faces like that. I tell them it will cost you more for me to reuse them and you won't get a warranty. Sometimes I will on polycarb that's not too old and could come off easy.. but that sign is trash.

Like others mentioned, a cast print and overlam will last a little longer, but he just needs to plan on replacing the thing every 5-7 years. Set the expectation. That's a lot of panels, price it well.

 

[tulsagraphics]

Rule is not to reuse faces like that. I tell them it will cost you more for me to reuse them and you won't get a warranty. Sometimes I will on polycarb that's not too old and could come off easy.. but that sign is trash.

Like others mentioned, a cast print and overlam will last a little longer, but he just needs to plan on replacing the thing every 5-7 years. Set the expectation. That's a lot of panels, price it well.

For sure. I haven't priced a job this big before -- it's hard to gauge how many hours will be involved. This company has 119 locations, so they should already have a good idea about what pricing to expect. I should probably come in at something comparable, but how would you price something like this? Better yet -- you comin' to OK this month Texas_Signmaker ? lol

 

[tulsagraphics]

Also, I did tell 'em we need new ACM. Likely goin' the Omega-bond route - just under $100/sheet (4x10s).

 

[truckgraphics]

We use that Grimco material with a cast overlaminate for decals and larger flat surfaces like ACM. It should be fine, though Arlon 4600 should be longer lasting as it's rated for 7 years and really doesn't cost much more.

The Grimco material has one big advantage over its longer lasting competitors. It's really sticky and that's why we usually prefer it. We'd rather have a product leave the shop and not lift or fall off on a cold morning as has happened. We've been using this material since it came out (2 years?) and have never had a problem. It's also fairly easy to weed for white lettering, though Arlon 4500 - a similar less expensive product - is a little easier. Probably not as long lasting, but again it serves the purpose.

If you use the Grimco material, is it going to be a problem after 5 years? For a job like this, I would wrap ACM segments in the shop or print and cut the big letters and apply to the ACM as that might be easier. If at all possible we'd attach the new panels over the old layer using foam tape, screws and decorative (inset) washers. Or remove the old panels if that's feasible. If it fails after five years, I doubt the owner will be upset. Remove the ACM, flip it and re-coat it. Or just replace it. I wouldn't try to strip it. If you are worried about longevity, go with Arlon 4600. As long as you use new ACM for this job, you probably can't go wrong. (But don't blame me if it does!)

Everything wears out eventually. Five years is reasonable (unless you have to strip the old decals.) My wife saw a truck I did in cast 20 years ago going down the road the other day. If I had used cheaper materials, I would have profited three times over!

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I'd probably price it at $700-800 a panel installed. But if they have locations all over, they probably got someone dirt cheap that will travel around doing them...but worth a bid

 

[tulsagraphics]

I'd probably price it at $700-800 a panel installed. But if they have locations all over, they probably got someone dirt cheap that will travel around doing them...but worth a bid

Sounds good. (that'd go a long way toward a new lift)

 

[ProSignTN]

I would recommend a frame to secure a billboard vinyl flex with pole pockets. Good for 4-5 years at a fraction of the cost. Easily change out when it's faded. You would need to remove the wall pack fixture or whatever that is over the door and reinstall after the sign install. The picks are my own design and fab but Formetco & Ackland Frames both have ready made systems for a project of this size. Circle Graphics or any other specialized large format wholesaler could do your printing.

 

[Gino]

Not a bad idea prosign.

Truckgraphics....... not to be rude, but are your suggestions tried and true or is most of what you say, heresay ??

tulsa............ I would ask your contact for a meeting and open a dialog about many locations or just this one ?? If they show any interest, you can put together a quote based upon certain discounts on your buying ability on ink, vinyl and substrates. Then again, maybe the other locations are alright or different configurations. That's what you need to inquire about to give them good numbers all around.

 

[JBurton]

Jake's Fireworks

Don't spend too much time on it, price it cheap or don't bother. There's a reason they shipped their own stuff to the store, they will not come off a penny more than they have/want to.

 

[tulsagraphics]

Don't spend too much time on it, price it cheap or don't bother. There's a reason they shipped their own stuff to the store, they will not come off a penny more than they have/want to.

Yep. I'm sure they've beaten up installers for years on price. It's hard to negotiate with clients that have their own in-house sign shop (and way more buying power than us). Only good thing is -- unless they have a crew that's traveling the country for them (doesn't appear to be the case), they'll have to pony up for "our" labor -- since that's not something they can purchase by the truckload from Grimco. I'm willing to do it for a little bit cheaper to get the job -- only because this thing could really put a dent in the cost of that new lift I'm purchasing. Just gotta strike while the iron is hot. A new fireworks store sign is WAY more useful in the next few weeks than it will be in a month.

(which, by the way, they added another sign to this job -- we're looking at (26) 4x10 panels now). We'll see what happens.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!