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What computer should I get?

smdgrfx

New Member
Knowing full well the cries of 'Philistene', "Heretic', 'Unclean', etc that this will evoke from the hardware weenies adrift in these waters, the answer to your question is most any PC with a GB or so of RAM will do just fine.

The difference in complete start to finish speed for any job you're likely to do between the wet dreams of the hardware obsessed and most anything that runs will be measured in seconds.

Case in point: The machine in the shop that runs the plotter and printer, Flexi, Corel, whatever, is an 10 year old Dell antique. It lopes along at its own pace and it has never given me cause to curse it or obsess over something bigger, better, or newer.


You obviously have never tried a new computer with your setup. Then again, if all of your equipment and software is 10 years old, and you don't rip 600mb files...it all sings in harmony. I can tell you with certainty that the faster my rip machine is, the faster it gets the job done. The difference between your PC and my PC would be measured in minutes (lots of them). To each his own...
 

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
You obviously have never tried a new computer with your setup. Then again, if all of your equipment and software is 10 years old, and you don't rip 600mb files...it all sings in harmony. I can tell you with certainty that the faster my rip machine is, the faster it gets the job done. The difference between your PC and my PC would be measured in minutes (lots of them). To each his own...

Twaddle. I routinely RIP files in the GB+ range, my software is Flexi 8.62, Corel X3, etc., as up to date as serves my needs. Some RIPs take longer than others but they all get done in an acceptable amount of time. RIPing is but a minor part of the 'job' to which you refer.

If the RIP were instantaneous it wouldn't make a significant difference in the total wall time a job consumes.
 

SignBurst PCs

New Member
Twaddle. I routinely RIP files in the GB+ range, my software is Flexi 8.62, Corel X3, etc., as up to date as serves my needs. Some RIPs take longer than others but they all get done in an acceptable amount of time. RIPing is but a minor part of the 'job' to which you refer.

If the RIP were instantaneous it wouldn't make a significant difference in the total wall time a job consumes.

Bob,

I mean no disrespect in any way, but I would have to assume that your workflow and/or file size is somewhat different than our customers if you are happy with a 10 year old computer running design or RIP. Either that or you are just trying to get a rise out of someone.

I can tell you from personal experience (lots of it) that depending on a ten year old computer is simply a bad business decision in most cases. The time you lose in productivity alone can be staggering. Not to mention the amount of $$$ downtime and repairs are going to cost you.
 

LittleSnakey

New Member
SMD that sounds nice... wish we did ssd we spent the money on the video card.
here is what I just built
I7-960 3.2ghz 1366 processor
asus sabertooth motherboard
24gb tripple ddr3 1600 corsair
2 450gb Velocoraptor Hd's Raid 0
ATI Firepro V5900 video card
approx $1800

The new AMD chips will be coming out next month. They will be reasonably priced. Check this link http://www.guru3d.com/article/pcbuyer-guide-summer-2011/ for a jump off point if you want to build something yourself in the Intel lineup. As others have said, a lot depends on your budget. I just spent $1600 on building a modest AMD build. 990FX board with AMD 975 quad core (upgradeable to new chips coming out). 16gb ram, 2gb ram video card, 800w power supply. Would have been a couple of hundred more if I went with Intel. But I put money where it's going to count. Two SSD drives (120gb Patriot Wilfire) in Raid 0 on a PCI express caddy. Stupid fast. 950 mb/s read - 650 mb/s write. NOTHING feels slow on my computer.

Check the link for lots of information....
 

smdgrfx

New Member
Firepro = really nice...

I went with the 6950 for triple display and possibly a game or two on those days when I need a break. I already have two i7 960 rigs with older 5770 cards, 12gb of ram, so I wanted to build an AMD rig to compare. Matter of fact, the i7 rigs have a 120gb SSD with two Velociraptors in Raid 0 for scratch drive. Works really nice.

On a side note, I water cool all of our rigs because they are all overclocked...the 960s run all day at 4.2ghz.

Next on my list is to configure a RAM drive. Supposed to be even faster than SSD's. With your 24gb of RAM, you should give it a shot.
 

LittleSnakey

New Member
keep us posted on i7 vs AMD
I am going from an amd phenom black 9950 , same harddrives, firepro v5800, 8gb ram system to the intel. My Amd system has problems when I do high memory operations like alienskins filter in a highres file. Once the memory gets used up the computer runs real slow till I reboot. Runs great till I over do it.
Firepro = really nice...

I went with the 6950 for triple display and possibly a game or two on those days when I need a break. I already have two i7 960 rigs with older 5770 cards, 12gb of ram, so I wanted to build an AMD rig to compare. Matter of fact, the i7 rigs have a 120gb SSD with two Velociraptors in Raid 0 for scratch drive. Works really nice.

On a side note, I water cool all of our rigs because they are all overclocked...the 960s run all day at 4.2ghz.

Next on my list is to configure a RAM drive. Supposed to be even faster than SSD's. With your 24gb of RAM, you should give it a shot.
 

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
Bob,

I mean no disrespect in any way, but I would have to assume that your workflow and/or file size is somewhat different than our customers if you are happy with a 10 year old computer running design or RIP. Either that or you are just trying to get a rise out of someone.

Just trying to point out that those who give undue reverence to their tools are invariably inept and rather foolish.

I can tell you from personal experience (lots of it) that depending on a ten year old computer is simply a bad business decision in most cases. The time you lose in productivity alone can be staggering. Not to mention the amount of $$$ downtime and repairs are going to cost you.

Let's see...In the 10 years this machine has been chugging away I have spent exactly $0 on repairs and have experienced 0 seconds of down time. In that time I have been through four monitors, three plotters, and two large format printers. When it finally collapses, perhaps in a cloud of greasy vapor, I'll probably replace it.

If your concept of a good business decision is to spend ~$1K gratuitously in order to be fashionable then you're welcome to it. I have other perversities, all of them much more fun than replacing perfectly serviceable equipment, on which to squander money. I lose no productivity, the jobs come in, the jobs get done, exactly when I promised them done. Usually in less than 24 hours. If, for some reason, there has been some perturbation or another in the workflow, it's never been caused by this machine. Why would I want to do anything any faster?

I also have a Cutawl that's more than 50 years old. It works just fine, should I replace that as well in order to be trendy? Note than I also have a far more recent edition of Cutawl. I cannot tell the difference in something cut by one or the other. The power tools in my wood and fabrication shop are all 30 to 40 years old and function perfectly. Should I also include them in a frenzy of modernization?
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
If your concept of a good business decision is to spend ~$1K gratuitously in order to be fashionable then you're welcome to it.

It works just fine, should I replace that as well in order to be trendy? Note than I also have a far more recent edition of Cutawl. I cannot tell the difference in something cut by one or the other.


The power tools in my wood and fabrication shop are all 30 to 40 years old and function perfectly. Should I also include them in a frenzy of modernization?

It depends on what you are talking about. Some "tools" do not change as rapidly as others. Computers are probably one of the most rapidly changing "tools" that the majority of people see.

Is there some ego stroking that goes along with getting new computer "tools", sure there is. Does that mean it's the only reason to upgrade because it's the trendy thing to do? Nope, not at all. It seems like what's above is getting pretty close to a false dilemma scenario

Now could I have stayed back a couple of generations to keep everything on the same page to make not upgrading easier? Sure, but in the end my workflow would have suffered and thus profitability would have suffered as well. Does that mean that it would be the same way in your case, no, but I don't have the same luxury that you do it appears.

I do like my tools though, so upgrading is easier for me to do then it appears to be for you with regard to this application.

Now, I do still have my grandfather's saddle that is 50 yrs old and I still use it. Not much difference between today's saddles and the ones 50 yrs (or older). A few, but certainly not as much as what you have different between a 10 yr old computer versus a new one.
 

SignBurst PCs

New Member
Bob, you have been very fortunate to have a system last 10 years without spending any $$$ on repairs or experiencing any downtime.

My concept of a good business decision is to replace an aging computer system when the amount of increased productivity, reliability, software compatibility, and peace of mind outweighs the capital cost of the new computer system.

If your business model works with a 10 year old computer, good deal. I would guess that my customers don't share that luxury.
 

omgsideburns

New Member
Knowing full well the cries of 'Philistene', "Heretic', 'Unclean', etc that this will evoke from the hardware weenies adrift in these waters, the answer to your question is most any PC with a GB or so of RAM will do just fine.

The difference in complete start to finish speed for any job you're likely to do between the wet dreams of the hardware obsessed and most anything that runs will be measured in seconds.

Case in point: The machine in the shop that runs the plotter and printer, Flexi, Corel, whatever, is an 10 year old Dell antique. It lopes along at its own pace and it has never given me cause to curse it or obsess over something bigger, better, or newer.

you're kidding right?

My new macbook pro I use for freelance and homework (and when my work computer can't handle the files) will load any program from my cs5 suite in under 5 seconds.. never hangs, and takes only a moment to apply effects.

My old (3 years?) AMD athlon (ugghhh) that was provided to me at my job, with 4 gigs of memory, decent hdds, and a decent video card can hang for up to a minute just loading photoshop, signlab, or illustrator. And any time I go to apply an effect or anything it just hangs there for a minute. It's probably the reason my ADHD is so bad at work, because I'm constantly forced to watch that little loading donut spin around in circles.

Keeping up to date with software means keeping up to date with hardware too. I know not everyone feels the need to be cutting edge, but you don't want to be left behind either.

Yes, a decently fast computer will keep you working more efficiently without unneeded pauses, and (at least for me) less room for distraction.. typing this as I wait for a file to load.
 

royster13

New Member
I am about 1 3/4 years into my current system and reading this thread with great interest as I will start to buy parts very soon....Old computer works fine but maybe slower than desired....It was about 600.00 so if I get 2 years out of it before I pass it down to my wife I think I have done good....
 

Techman

New Member
My new macbook pro I use for freelance and homework (and when my work computer can't handle the files) will load any program from my cs5 suite in under 5 seconds..

Totally irrelevant. Load times are not a good comparison of a good verses bad. In fact my latest build opens in 7 in just seconds too. But this type of micro point means nothing in the overall scheme.

You are comparing birds to dogs and trying to get a birddog. That won't fly at all.

BOb's point is that his old computer is fully serviceable and runs his shop just fine. He has no need to have a computer that opens in 11 seconds. He is right when he says that RIP times or rendering times are not an important in the overall job in his shop. It takes a few hours to develop a concept, layout a job and prep it for production. The RIP time of 20 seconds means nothing in the overall job and is just a very small fraction of the equation. Yes, we all know that.

I am running my small business with 9/10 yr old machines as well. These machines serve me well and will continue on as long as there is a need for a serial and parallel port. Yes they are slow but they are perfectly fine for letters, invoices, email, surfing, order taking or running the cutter. Is there any need to replace them?

Getting back to the OP's point. He wants/needs a new machine. I suggest he gets a I7 machine with at least the Intel I7 2600 processor. I have one here now and It simply flies. Corel opens in just seconds, it renders these huge 3D CNC cad files almost as fast as I can click the mouse. How much faster does it need to be?
 

omgsideburns

New Member
Load times are a good benchmark for people to get a feel for what I'm talking about though. A dinosaur of a computer trying to run newer software is going to slow you to a crawl. Get something new and decently fast, don't get an emachine, but no need to spring for $2-3k worth of computer if you aren't going to use it.

Yes my laptop was expensive, but it's the cost for a comparable desktop is much less. What I'm negating is the old vs new computer compared to efficiency. In my case is makes a huge difference in my output.

One size does not fit all.
 

andy

New Member
I am running my small business with 9/10 yr old machines as well. These machines serve me well and will continue on as long as there is a need for a serial and parallel port. Yes they are slow but they are perfectly fine for letters, invoices, email, surfing, order taking or running the cutter. Is there any need to replace them?

I'd say there is every reason NOT to change a thing... if it ain't broke why fix it?

We run used Dell dimensions and Optiplex machines on a mixed Xp/ Win98 network and are utterly delighted with the results... everything works, everything connects, everything is available to start work immediatley.

In my experience you tinker with your PC systems at your peril... CNC routers, lasers, waterjets and plotters are perfectly happy running under XP or Win98... jacking this kind of hardware onto a 64bit machine won't make one iota of difference to the hardware's performance... it'll just unleash a tidal wave of conflicts, error messages and hours of down time whilst you frantically attempt to put everything back to how it was.

If people are struggling to multi task on a single machine the obvious answer is to buy more computers. In our shop every single piece of hardware has it's own dedicated control PC. If you're using an uncluttered machine paired back to the basic software required to control the attached hardware even an ancient Win98 machine runs at a fair old lick.

We're so pleased with the stability and hassle free nature of our "antique" PC setup that we're frantically buying up armfuls of refurbished Dell's with XP preloaded... stick em in the store room ready for instant replacement of any dead machines. If I can find a couple of old pentium machines with ISA slots I'll grab them too.
 

choucove

New Member
There is going to be a TON of debate over this seemingly simple phrase that I hear all the time in the computer business, "If it ain't broke why fix it?"

Well, there are several reasons why this is NOT a good approach towards computers in your business. Not all the time, but most of the time! My simple reply is "Disaster prevention vs. disaster recovery."

Computer hardware will fail, it's death is as inevitable as our own. Just like our own, we never really know when its coming, and hardware may last you a decade or longer, and it may last you a year or less. If you have a machine that you utilize daily for production work, think of it this way. What if you walk into your shop in the morning, and you have a full day's work lined up for that computer, but lo and behold it is gone and dead. How long will you be down without production? What files or programs have you just lost? The cost for recovering from a sudden failed system can be tremendous! If you need to have data recovered off a hard drive, because you didn't back it up properly, you could be looking at a minimum of $500 per hard drive, or $1,000 per hard drive for rush service! Plus, if you need to get a computer, how long will it take you to get a replacement in and set up to function and be ready for production? All that down time means you're getting behind. All in all, you're not only having lost production time (lost possible income and labor costs) but you might have costs for data recover, PLUS a new replacement computer: It's a double whammy.

Proper budget planning to replace out old computers can help minimize the risk of such disaster recovery because you're replacing aging hardware with new hardware which lessens the risk of failure. You're not having to replace a system when everything has ground to a hault or paying for data recover services. Additionally, your new system will have more likelihood of remaining compatible with the latest software and hardware available in the industry. This way if you do have to make repairs or upgrades to the system it will be easier to find more readily available parts. The next big benefit with this option is you are utilizing more powerful and efficient hardware which, yes, does translate into less time waiting on your system to perform certain tasks which can increase your overall productivity.

At one of our offices this last winter replaced out all of our computer systems. They were old systems, at least 6 years old running a Intel Celeron with 1 GB of RAM and a 160GB IDE hard drive. With those systems Flexi took a minute to open, and when printing a banner it could take up to ten minutes for it to output to the printer before it even began to print. Working within Photoshop and Illustrator was pretty much impossible as applying filters or working on larger projects brought the system to a crawl.

We upgraded them to new quad-core Core i5 systems with 12GB of RAM and fast SATAIII hard drives. Load times for programs was nearly instantaneous, and the system was able to RIP even large print files in seconds. We calculated things out and realized that each of the four designers there was able to actually work an additional fifteen minutes per day just by upgrading to the new computer. That might seem like nothing, but think of it this way. Each employee is putting in over an hour of extra work per week (five hours per week for all four employees) which totals 65 hours per year per employee (that's 260 hours for your shop per year in additional work performed.) If all that extra work time is billable hours, that extra productivity can easily pay for your new computers within the first year!

From what I can tell, our employees, working an additional fifteen minutes a day, with an estimated design rate of $80 per hour, will have an additional $5,200 worth of possible production time throughout the year each. Now, of course this is theoretical, as shops aren't going to "stop" billing a customer every time they have to sit and wait on their computer. However, it shows that having that little extra time saved each day can add up throughout the year if applied towards production products and can earn you a lot of money!
 

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
There is going to be a TON of debate over this seemingly simple phrase that I hear all the time in the computer business, "If it ain't broke why fix it?"

Well, there are several reasons why this is NOT a good approach towards computers in your business. Not all the time, but most of the time! My simple reply is "Disaster prevention vs. disaster recovery."...

Ah...Yet Another trendy but basically fraudulent notion. Why do you plan for failure? That tends to set you up planning for failure and having to deal with success. Why not plan for success and deal with failure? A much happier state of affairs.

A disaster is not something for which comprehensive plans can be laid. That's why it's called a disaster. It's far simpler merely to deal with it if and when it might happen than invest resources planning for it. No matter how anally you might plan for it, you'll still have to deal with it.

I realize in the modern mind all things unpleasant must be mitigated if not banned. But shit happens, deal with it and don't waste your time agonizing over just when the shit might hit the fan. When it does, shovel it up and get on with whatever it is you do.
 

SignBurst PCs

New Member
Ah...Yet Another trendy but basically fraudulent notion. Why do you plan for failure? That tends to set you up planning for failure and having to deal with success. Why not plan for success and deal with failure? A much happier state of affairs.

I think that Bob just likes to argue.

I believe that being prepared in case of failure is very different than planning for failure. I also believe that a little foresight is a good thing. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure," - Benjamin Franklin

A disaster is not something for which comprehensive plans can be laid. That's why it's called a disaster. It's far simpler merely to deal with it if and when it might happen than invest resources planning for it. No matter how anally you might plan for it, you'll still have to deal with it.

When dealing with computers (and other aspects of life), comprehensive plans can absolutely be laid for dealing with disaster. It is my experience that a well laid plan can minimize a disaster to a mere inconvenience (i.e. backup routines and fire escapes).

I realize in the modern mind all things unpleasant must be mitigated if not banned. But shit happens, deal with it and don't waste your time agonizing over just when the shit might hit the fan. When it does, shovel it up and get on with whatever it is you do.

I can guarantee that every single customer that has called me with a failed computer, years of lost data, and a months worth of work lined up wished that they had planned a little better instead of having to "shovel it".
 

Techman

New Member
I can guarantee that every single customer that has called me with a failed computer, years of lost data, and a months worth of work lined up wished that they had planned a little better instead of having to "shovel it".

Those who had a computer failure and lost years of work deserve what they got.
 
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