What do you consider "color matching"......?

[FatCat]

Long story short, I used an outside vendor to produce some feather flags and a tent for a customer of ours. (No, I am not going to name them here.) We've used them before and all our prior work from them has been fine.

However, we received the flags and tent, and the colors on the flags don't match the tent - not even close. Of course the customer is going to use them all together and I doubt they'll accept the job. Both are the same color combination (Green and Orange) and the exact same CMYK values were used on both files - so its not a file issue. (The orange isn't terrible but the green on the tent looks like John Deere green and the flags look like dark pine tree green.)

I contacted customer support through email, explained the issue and got a reply today that kind of ticked me off. Basically, they said the flags were printed on one machine, the tent was printed on another and they don't guarantee color matching. I've been in the industry over 20 years and I understand "color matching" as hitting a called pantone spot color, etc. NOT color consistency, which this clearly is.

They went on to say they would reprint the job JUST THIS ONCE if I sent them a new file and adjusted it better to the color I wanted??? OK, so how do I know what printer you're going to put it on and how do I know how to adjust for that printer?? In this day and age a shop that doesn't have their machines at least SOMEWHAT calibrated is just mind boggling. I wonder if they got a big order from Coca-Cola if they would think it would be OK to have their flags look the correct shade of red, but the table throw was pink and the tent they ordered turned out maroon?!?!?

I bit my tongue and replied professionally and politely - will see what that yields....sigh...just can't believe I even have to go through this with a trade company.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Sounds like we should look for another company to sub those out to

 

[GaSouthpaw]

Yeah, that's pretty much unacceptable. We run five Seikos and an HP. 186 Red (for example) is the same, no matter which it comes from.

 

[Andy D]

No way, totally unacceptable!
Yes there will be a slight color shift from material to material and from printer to printer, but nowhere near what you're describing.
It's their responsibility to calibrate their equipment to get similar color outcomes.
FatCat PM me and I will hook you up with the company I use for those products, they are fantastic. (I sure hope they're not the company you used)

 

[FatCat]

Came in this morning, this was their reply...

Hello Sean,

Unfortunately, with our company's current staff and production process, there is simply no way for us to match the tent color to your flag.

The only realistic option we have with our current process is to reprint the item repeatedly until the printed product will be to your satisfaction. Management is not willing to go to that extent to color match two products we originally could never promise to color match. Also, we no longer have the finished flags for the printer to even compare the canopy print with.

With that being said, offering you a one time courtesy reprint is the extent of services our company is able to provide at this time. As much as we want to practice a “help me help you” motto, we do not want to promise something our company just can not deliver.

 

[RaymondLoewy]

It sounds like the company you used are a bunch of amateurs.

 

[Andy D]

At the very least, a company who offers multiple products, that they know could be used together, should have a fairly large color list
that they can guarantee will be a close match; fire engine red, baby blue, shamrock green, etc..

 

[Johnny Best]

If sending artwork out to be printed by someone else I use RGB color. But using two different printers and their response to the problem it might not have made a difference. Good luck.

 

[Pauly]

Not acceptable.
The printers should be calibrated at least. and without colour matching, they should be pretty close to one and other. Even if it's not perfect, it would still be better.

It's usually the ones that dont care or dont know about colour matching or simply profiling their printers.

Some companies also dont bother with colour matching until you ask.

For example, all our printers are profiled for every media we run. If do a run on the flatbed on something rigid, then do a run on the roll-roll on coated paper, it'll be very close or pretty spot on.
We dont offer colour matching unless specified. (usually if you're trying to hit a specific colour) But we also expect them to spend a certain amount so it's not a total waste of time for a $100 job. as it can take time to colour match.

 

[gabagoo]

Even if they are not calibrated how hard is it to print a colour chart from both machines and then once it is completed in one printer match up the colours for the second printer from it's charts

 

[FatCat]

Again, I've been in the printing industry since 1994. I used to witness and advise on "press checks" to make sure colors were absolutely what the client wanted...I understand that is a PITA. However, this is NOTHING close to that. I'm asking them to hit a forest green not "John Deere Green" and apparently it's beyond their capability???

It's like going to a pizza shop and ordering 2 pizzas, one is fine, the other is burnt but they aren't able to promise the replacement pizza won't be burnt as well....!??!?!?

 

[FatCat]

BTW - this is my exact email I wrote them yesterday for reference...I wasn't rude and felt like I was pleading for them to help me...

Good morning,


I am well aware and do understand that different materials can cause color shifts and that different printers can print differently. (I have been in the printing industry since 1994 working in offset, digital, screen printing and wide format.) However, you are asking me to adjust my file to account for a printer I know nothing about in hopes I will “guess” correctly what that printer needs to print the color I want? This seems to me a sure way to fail, and I am politely asking for your help in finding a better solution.

I completely understand you don’t do color matching, and to be clear I am not asking you to match a pantone color in a swatch book. I am merely asking the different items I ordered from your company be color consistent throughout since only you have control of your equipment and processes. In all print shops I have worked, in every situation, across all mediums and methods there is an understanding that basic color accuracy is an inherent part of the job of any printer regardless of material or output device.

From one professional to another, I am only asking that you “help me help you” so that we can both move forward and keep this and future business from this customer for both of our benefit.


Respectfully,

 

[Pauly]

BTW - this is my exact email I wrote them yesterday for reference...I wasn't rude and felt like I was pleading for them to help me...

Good morning,


I am well aware and do understand that different materials can cause color shifts and that different printers can print differently. (I have been in the printing industry since 1994 working in offset, digital, screen printing and wide format.) However, you are asking me to adjust my file to account for a printer I know nothing about in hopes I will “guess” correctly what that printer needs to print the color I want? This seems to me a sure way to fail, and I am politely asking for your help in finding a better solution.

I completely understand you don’t do color matching, and to be clear I am not asking you to match a pantone color in a swatch book. I am merely asking the different items I ordered from your company be color consistent throughout since only you have control of your equipment and processes. In all print shops I have worked, in every situation, across all mediums and methods there is an understanding that basic color accuracy is an inherent part of the job of any printer regardless of material or output device.

From one professional to another, I am only asking that you “help me help you” so that we can both move forward and keep this and future business from this customer for both of our benefit.


Respectfully,

I would not be annoyed receiving this email. very polite and at the same time you're trying to help them.

 

[WYLDGFI]

As a printer...color matching from one printer to another can be tricky. Taken the proper time, it is feasible and should have been thought thru in this case of course. Printing on the Same Exact printer for the color matching is the scenario that should have been in place if possible...otherwise naming a PMS color is always a great reference point. There have been instances for us where we had to dial in a color....latex to UV or vice versa in order to achieve a match. We're a smaller outfit and flexible enough that we can do that and take that into account for our clients when the need arises.
We don't do fabric...but a mis-matched color is a poor showing for an outfit of that sort on any level. It was up to them to mitigate any issues that could have arisen from your job from the start.

 

[ABA Visibility Products]

Hello Sean--

We can do this for you, and make your customer happy. Give us a call at 801-305-1655 and ask for Cathy or Bryan, or you can email us @ sales@abacatalog.com

Thanks!

 

[MikePatterson]

I would expect "in this situation" that the colors be reasonably close" to the eye between both products. They are not touching and probably will be separated by a few feet so a slight shift would be acceptable.
The company sounds like they just don't want to work at their job. You can only submit the art with color specs and expect them to produce something that the customer would want.

Give up the company that you used so some of us won't fall into the same trap.

 

[CanuckSigns]

If both files were submitted together they should have at the very least called you and warned you of the potential issues. Having said that, a company that can't get 2 products they sell to be reasonably close in colour has no business calling themselves a trade printer.

 

[chinaski]

CMYK values don't have much meaning without being defined by an ICC profile. I'm assuming you've embedded the same output profile for both.

The most objective way is to simply measure the printed colors with a spectrophotometer. Plug the Lab values into a Delta-E calculator to see how different the colors actually are. Anything less than 4 is considered a match. If you define your colours as Spot color then their RIP software should be able to indicate in advance what the expected output will be. Unless your colours are well outside of one of the printers color gamut there is no reason they shouldn't be a reasonable match.

 

[Pauly]

CMYK values don't have much meaning without being defined by an ICC profile. I'm assuming you've embedded the same output profile for both.

The most objective way is to simply measure the printed colors with a spectrophotometer. Plug the Lab values into a Delta-E calculator to see how different the colors actually are. Anything less than 4 is considered a match. If you define your colours as Spot color then their RIP software should be able to indicate in advance what the expected output will be. Unless your colours are well outside of one of the printers color gamut there is no reason they shouldn't be a reasonable match.
View attachment 152826 View attachment 152827

or they're simply using canned profiles so the colour output from the printer is already off.

 

[FatCat]

Well...frustrated is all I can say at this point...

The "reprinted" tent canopies arrived last night - I opened up the box and it appears there is NO DIFFERENCE in the color between these and the first batch. Even though I tweaked the color much darker and uploaded new files for them to print from.

So, I can already here the OP saying "Well, we tried, sorry you're not happy - nothing we can do...we can't keep reprinting these things for free you know?"

This puts me in a hard spot with a customer (who I just gained their account this year) and I either have them believe that there is no way to get the color that it should be...or I try to initiate a charge-back on the whole order and see if I can get them reprinted elsewhere.

I just don't know what will be the best course of action at this point....ugh!