What formula do you use to quote a job?

[bob]

It's not proven. You are wrong. You just won't admit it.

QED means "It is Demonstrated", not proven.

In this case the quoted response demonstrates exactly the verity of the original statement. It proves nothing.

 

[bob]

What an ignorant statement.

Try looking for a NON lit gas station sign, in the middle of nowhere, at 3 am.

So much for identical functionality.

As a favorite philosophy professor from days long past was wont to say when someone was desperately reaching for something in a frenzy of tortured reasoning: Don't be an ass.

 

[HulkSmash]

As a favorite philosophy professor from days long past was wont to say when someone was desperately reaching for something in a frenzy of tortured reasoning: Don't be an ass.

Don't be an ass? I think you got that covered. Once again, you avoid a fact of yet you are wrong again. Who's reaching now?

 

[signmeup]

QED means "It is Demonstrated", not proven.

In this case the quoted response demonstrates exactly the verity of the original statement. It proves nothing.

Proved... demonstrated... same thing in this context. And you're still wrong.

 

[iSign]

they're not identical... I stuck a higher price tag on mine!
It's kinda like a serial number, giving my product a unique identity, that specifically identifies it, both as unique... and more expensive.

Put that fungability in yer pipe and smoke it...

...my nearly identical signs might be fungible... but you won't know unless you can afford MINE!

(don't waste your breath citing errors in my pseudo-bob-speak... i don't give a fungible if i can fake your pompous assholiness)

 

[Rick]

I went to some business meeting for designers recently... one interesting thing a designer said. If a client is shopping for design and believes that it's all the same or will provide them with the same result... they are treating it as a commodity, if they are treating like one, then it is one... at least to the client.

I heard one of them use the term fungibility... had to look it up. The argument rolling around in my head after reading the definition is: As a Designer and sign craftsmen, I know my work is unique, made to order, or custom. But if clients are treating my work like throwing something in a cart because they need any banner, sign or logo, then I need to avoid those clients, school them or myself, or provide them with that kind of service they require and keep it out of my portfolio and occasionally have to tell a few to buzz off to stay sane.

I have no set policy except one, I will drop shopping cart clients for a custom client in a heartbeat.

 

[HulkSmash]

I went to some business meeting for designers recently... one interesting thing a designer said. If a client is shopping for design and believes that it's all the same or will provide them with the same result... they are treating it as a commodity, if they are treating like one, then it is one... at least to the client.

I heard one of them use the term fungibility... had to look it up. The argument rolling around in my head after reading the definition is: As a Designer and sign craftsmen, I know my work is unique, made to order, or custom. But if clients are treating my work like throwing something in a cart because they need any banner, sign or logo, then I need to avoid those clients, school them or myself, or provide them with that kind of service they require and keep it out of my portfolio and occasionally have to tell a few to buzz off to stay sane.

I have no set policy except one, I will drop shopping cart clients for a custom client in a heartbeat.

 

[Custom_Grafx]

Bob, I love your signature.

Ironically, neither of your solutions involve the use of intellectual vocab which you are so gifted with!

Smile, or smile and a gun. Take a pick.

Love it!

 

[Msrae]

I went to some business meeting for designers recently... one interesting thing a designer said. If a client is shopping for design and believes that it's all the same or will provide them with the same result... they are treating it as a commodity, if they are treating like one, then it is one... at least to the client.

I heard one of them use the term fungibility... had to look it up. The argument rolling around in my head after reading the definition is: As a Designer and sign craftsmen, I know my work is unique, made to order, or custom. But if clients are treating my work like throwing something in a cart because they need any banner, sign or logo, then I need to avoid those clients, school them or myself, or provide them with that kind of service they require and keep it out of my portfolio and occasionally have to tell a few to buzz off to stay sane.

I have no set policy except one, I will drop shopping cart clients for a custom client in a heartbeat.

Great post. Thank you.

 

[HSHLLC]

Lau Designs, I have made a simple pricing sheet for decals done in quantities. It doesn't take into account everything but it works well for me. It will tell you your material costs and the profit margin you are working with.

I would love to hear some feedback!

Simple Automatic Pricing Sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkUr1f2rykU4dGNKd3FtWjJJTUhPbkNYTnhyc2NvOFE&hl=en_US

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

I'm new at this, but the way I quote a job is with a detailed breakdown of the materials and the labor. I'm concerned that I may be giving the customer more information than they need, but it works well for the sake of coming up with accurate quotes. It also takes some time and consideration, but when you're starting out in this business I suppose you should always dot your i's and cross your t's anyway.

For example, for a vinyl job on a vehicle, I would list a breakdown of specific items such as the vinyl, transfer tape, cleaning/application fluids, etc. marking everything up around 100%, especially since we stock a decent amount of vinyl and have to keep it stored in a climate controlled facility (plus it takes up storage space). Then I would list labor items such as design and prep time, cutting, weeding, and transfer taping time, vehicle prepping time, and application time. I sit and think about the task based on prior experience and come up with a reasonable estimate of time, then multiply it times my hourly rate.

Then if I'm not entirely certain, I refer to the contractors pricing guide, when possible, and compare it to see if my quote sounds ridiculously off. So far it's worked out pretty well. I've never lost money on a job yet, so that's always good.

 

[smiley]

:Oopsosted in wrong area

 

[Tigertron]

I would like to thank Fred for some very helpful and useful information. Most people would give some sarcastic response or snide comment. But Fred gave a valuable response that speaks fathoms for his character.

I too, oddly, am an engineer looking to learn something I can take with me and make money with in any town I plan to "retire" in. I don't want to undercut anyone I just want to make some money and keep busy.

As a side note of the commodity argument and my 2cent. The stuff you are selling is a commodity but the service is not. Two widgets my be identical but if one comes with the added value of support and a trust you can charge more for it and people will pay for it.

Anyway thanks again Fred I wish there were more like you.

 

[WeekendDirectionals]

I would like to thank Fred for some very helpful and useful information. Most people would give some sarcastic response or snide comment. But Fred gave a valuable response that speaks fathoms for his character.

....
As a side note of the commodity argument and my 2cent. The stuff you are selling is a commodity but the service is not. Two widgets my be identical but if one comes with the added value of support and a trust you can charge more for it and people will pay for it.

Anyway thanks again Fred I wish there were more like you.

Agreed,

 

[signswi]

I went to some business meeting for designers recently... one interesting thing a designer said. If a client is shopping for design and believes that it's all the same or will provide them with the same result... they are treating it as a commodity, if they are treating like one, then it is one... at least to the client.

I heard one of them use the term fungibility... had to look it up. The argument rolling around in my head after reading the definition is: As a Designer and sign craftsmen, I know my work is unique, made to order, or custom. But if clients are treating my work like throwing something in a cart because they need any banner, sign or logo, then I need to avoid those clients, school them or myself, or provide them with that kind of service they require and keep it out of my portfolio and occasionally have to tell a few to buzz off to stay sane.

I have no set policy except one, I will drop shopping cart clients for a custom client in a heartbeat.

Targeting your business towards clients that understand design is a service instead of a commodity is really important, well said. Don't be afraid of putting up a velvet rope and only letting the clients who understand the client/designer relationship through. You'll end up happier and more profitable. Design as a commodity shoppers can F right off to some stupid spec work website and get a piece of crap, why waste your time and emotional energy on them.

 

[bob]

...Don't be afraid of putting up a velvet rope and only letting the clients who understand the client/designer relationship through. You'll end up happier and more profitable...

Only if you can manage to live trap a sufficient number of clients that share your delusion.

...Design as a commodity shoppers can F right off to some stupid spec work website and get a piece of crap, why waste your time and emotional energy on them.

You and your work are about as special as a head cold. Regardless of how you and others huff and puff, you are dealing with a commodity. Merely because your work is unique does not make it particularly special or better, just unique. Everyone's work is unique to them. The universality of uniqueness negates that uniqueness thus rendering your product into a commodity.

It matters not a slug of ossified gorilla snot how you see your product, only how a prospective buyer might see it.

There are singular situations wherein you have a particular style of which a client might be enamored or the client is as blinded by the light as you are and thinks that you are the Chosen One, but for every one of these there are countless other situations where the client merely wants to say something and one shop's work is pretty much as good as any other.

Once you accept that you're in what is essentially a commodity market and you are not particularly special you'll better be able to deal with that reality.

 

[signswi]

You're cute, keep on drudging while people like Dan Antonelli make bank doing quality work. Design is not and never has been a commodity. You can attempt to commoditize graphic production but doing so strips the design out of it, as design is an exploratory, iterative, individualized process unique to each challenge. None of the most successful designers/firms/agencies, in any design discipline, approach it as a commodity--because that's an impossibility. Go ask IDEO if they think design is a commodity.

re: velvet rope: http://blog.getsatisfaction.com/2010/10/21/red-velvet-rope-policy/
Blog post by Michael Port, condensed version from his various books, all worth reading.

 

[bob]

You're cute, keep on drudging while people like Dan Antonelli make bank doing quality work. Design is not and never has been a commodity. You can attempt to commoditize graphic production but doing so strips the design out of it, as design is an exploratory, iterative, individualized process unique to each challenge. None of the most successful designers/firms/agencies, in any design discipline, approach it as a commodity--because that's an impossibility. Go ask IDEO if they think design is a commodity...

I might be a lot of things but cute is not one of them.

By your own description your product is a commodity. Your vacuous appeals to authority notwithstanding, if everything is unique then uniqueness cannot be a factor. If you had a box of identical rubber balls where all but one ball was white, the non-white ball would truly be unique. If each of the balls were a different color then not a one of them would be unique because they all exhibit the same uniqueness.

I do my share of design work, more than you might think, but I have no spiritual connection to it and no particular passion for it, none, nada, zip, zero, it's just another job. I try to do the best I'm able at integrating what the client wants with what the client needs and deliver good measure for what I charge but I have no particular interest in it.

Most any job that comes through your or my shop, the client could have gone elsewhere and received functionally identical work. The operative work here is 'functionally'.

 

[Gino]

I'm not condemning or defending what bob is saying.... I'm not sure I understand it ??

bob...... is what you're saying the same as if we need to get from point 'A' to point 'B' the same for everyone like saying.... you'll do it on a horse, so and so will do it by walking, while I'll do it in a SUV..... and the next guy does it in a jet...... the same idea or reasoning for all signs are basically created equal ??

Remember, I've not been around the block as many times as you, so I'm new to this kinda thinking.

If all you need is a form of transportation, whether one gets there in a Yugo, Chevy or a Rolls Royce.... it doesn't matter ?? However, if we break it down to walking or making a beast do our walking for us vs. man making a machine which might have conveniences or great speed or even great costs connected to it... it's still all the same. Except that one will get to the other end of the continent in 5 hours while the guy walking will take a few weeks or so ??

I'm not the village idiot, but I'm still a couple sandwiches shy of a picnic, so although it's quite evident YOU know what you're talking about.... could/would you let me in on a lower level ??

This commodity-fungus stuff is the smoke 'n' mirrors for me and I'd really like to know what you're really talking about. It makes sense, yet I can't grasp it.

​

 

[bob]

I'm not condemning or defending what bob is saying.... I'm not sure I understand it ??

bob...... is what you're saying the same as if we need to get from point 'A' to point 'B' the same for everyone like saying.... you'll do it on a horse, so and so will do it by walking, while I'll do it in a SUV..... and the next guy does it in a jet...... the same idea or reasoning for all signs are basically created equal ??...

Bad analogy. A sign product isn't a process occurring over some interval or another, it's a singularity, an object. The process by which it came into existence is not germane. In your analogy, the product is point B, how you arrived at point B is meaningless in this context. It's pretty much the same point B at which everyone else might have arrived.

Your product inarguably is unique. Unfortunately all other sign products are also unique. That being the case uniqueness cannot be a criteria for not being a commodity.

Unless, of course, you subscribe to the Orwellian notion that while they all are unique, some are more unique than others.

People who think that their product and, by extension, themselves, are special do not understand that when everyone exhibits a particular quality, then that quality cannot be used to claim specialness or superiority.