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What should I learn from this?

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
Taryn, not related to this thread in any way.. but I'm really curious about how yall live on a small island. Who does the town's signs? I couldn't find actual sign shops that are located there. Do outsiders have to boat in and install signs there? How does that work.
 

Boudica

Back to "educational purposes"
Taryn, not related to this thread in any way.. but I'm really curious about how yall live on a small island. Who does the town's signs? I couldn't find actual sign shops that are located there. Do outsiders have to boat in and install signs there? How does that work.
Closest business I could find that does vehicle graphics is in Juno. Tex, you're too close to Dallas. It's not the same as a small, remote, isolated population. People make do with what they've got, and hopefully strive to do more.
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
I'm here pants down waiting for my flogging, I have used Windex (actually the cheaper stuff) as application fluid for over 20 years without a problem. Its slower than rapid tac but does the job. The slower evaporation is sometimes nice on big outdoor installs in the sun. We do a lot of cranes and the booms can be a bit of a pain by yourself. For layering you also get a little more wiggle room time wise.
Don't get me wrong here, I get the point of the argument 100%.
 

Taryn

New Member
While the amonia in Windex is bad... It's not the only problem.

It's the same reason you tell (or should) tell people not to get a car wash with wax before a vehicle install.

Windex has chemicals to make it streak free - it gives a waxy like substance and lessens the surface adhesion of the vinyl. Wipe your finger on a window and feel how much resistance you get... Then spray it with Windex ,even let it dry and then try... It leaves behind an anti streak film that's similar to a wax.

It's akin to offgsssing vinyl in a solvent printer though. Some people use it a lot and swear by it... Will it ruin your install? 9/10 times unless your drenching the vehicle with it... No. But why risk it when baby soap / water is 1/10 the price and provides no risk?
I was not aware of that before, thanks! More specifically, I didn't know that Windex waxes whatever you spray it on. Could I theoretically try putting the soap/water mix you talked about in an empty (and thoroughly cleaned) windex spray bottle and have it work well?

Taryn, not related to this thread in any way.. but I'm really curious about how yall live on a small island. Who does the town's signs? I couldn't find actual sign shops that are located there. Do outsiders have to boat in and install signs there? How does that work.
For the most part, we do! The boss's dad cuts PVC boards for us since we've found those physically last a long time in the weather here. Along Main St and on our dock ramps have a good few examples of what we've done. Sadly, one of our longer lasting signs as of *almost* nine years did get busted because of a traveller being a bit too silly, so I am waiting to see if the local market does want me to redo that sign for them. If it's going outside for more than a couple weeks, then we try to get 14oz banners. If it's going up for only a couple weeks, then we get coroplast boards. For the most part, people getting signs from us already know exactly how they want them installed and know the boss personally (he is a bit of a hardass) so they do it themselves. I did mention earlier that ACE Electronics also does vinyl for boats but, as I've never been and really only tangentially know them by face, I have no idea what all they offer for vinyl services. Supposedly they do signs, but they don't look all that great either.
There was also the year that the school district (read: actually just one senior class parent in particular) decided they don't want to do stuff with us anymore because we were too expensive, got a quote from a sign shop in Juneau, and then came back and told me they want exactly the design the Juneau shop designed for them. The Juneau shop wanted something like $200 per 36"x96" banner plus shipping. They were suddenly okay with $175 per banner.

Closest business I could find that does vehicle graphics is in Juno. Tex, you're too close to Dallas. It's not the same as a small, remote, isolated population. People make do with what they've got, and hopefully strive to do more.
Google says that's 10hours and change "by car", too. Most of the out-of-town people that get lettering from us are from Wrangell and (S)Ketchikan, and that's mostly shops that either build boats or fix the whole boat. I like to think it's because of my personality ;) but they're also good friends with the boss. I would like to do the cool boat wraps I've seen online (and I think on a couple of reality shows?) eventually, but I have wayyy more experience to get before I can reasonably attempt it. The distance can be nice, though -- coming from someone who grew up in a city before high school, people from cities are kind of assholes when they go anywhere.
 

Boudica

Back to "educational purposes"
Friendly advice here... Absorb the input here with a grain of salt. Stay active, but don't write novels, and spend some more time to poke around the site. You'll get more perspective on members... And realize their advice might not be fluffy and and holding, but if you're truly here to learn, do that. Learn. No need to over explain, or lash out at what you didn't want to hear.
It doesn't look like you're in a location to take away from professionals, but someday you just may be the local pro, and some con may think they can take away business from you.
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
Friendly advice here... Absorb the input here with a grain of salt. Stay active, but don't write novels, and spend some more time to poke around the site. You'll get more perspective on members... And realize their advice might not be fluffy and and holding, but if you're truly here to learn, do that. Learn. No need to over explain, or lash out at what you didn't want to hear.
It doesn't look like you're in a location to take away from professionals, but someday you just may be the local pro, and some con may think they can take away business from you.
watery-eyes.jpg
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
While the amonia in Windex is bad... It's not the only problem.

It's the same reason you tell (or should) tell people not to get a car wash with wax before a vehicle install.

Windex has chemicals to make it streak free - it gives a waxy like substance and lessens the surface adhesion of the vinyl. Wipe your finger on a window and feel how much resistance you get... Then spray it with Windex ,even let it dry and then try... It leaves behind an anti streak film that's similar to a wax.
No it doesn't. You can get glass cleaner with wax in it but regular run of the mill stuff does not. You can also get ammonia free which I'd assume is just blue water with alcohol in it. Windex is a good residue free cleaner, feel free to actually research it. The foaming stuff really works well.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
No it doesn't. You can get glass cleaner with wax in it but regular run of the mill stuff does not. You can also get ammonia free which I'd assume is just blue water with alcohol in it. Windex is a good residue free cleaner, feel free to actually research it. The foaming stuff really works well.
A quick Google search shows dozens of articles saying Windex has a wax substance to produce streak free windows.


Not official of course. But that's the problem... When I say Windex I'm sure I'm talking about a different Windex than you are - there are hundreds of different variations of windex - any that say streak free has the waxy substance in it - I don't believe it's actually wax, just something to reduce the surface tension so the chemicals wipe off easier.... Which lowers the surface tension.

You can get non streak free, you can get amonia free... I'm sure with windex's wide range of products you can get a version where the only common ingredient is water.
 

Boudica

Back to "educational purposes"
See Taryn, you've kicked off a debate about cleaning methods... Nuggets of wisdom out of debate...
 

ikarasu

Active Member
No it doesn't. You can get glass cleaner with wax in it but regular run of the mill stuff does not. You can also get ammonia free which I'd assume is just blue water with alcohol in it. Windex is a good residue free cleaner, feel free to actually research it. The foaming stuff really works well.
Here - Notice I said "wax like" substance, because I couldn't think of the name off the top of my head. It was all the surfactants in Windex that was an issue (According to our 3M Rep).




Windex has 4-5 surfactants in it - Do they all completely disolve, or do they stay behind? My experience is Windex leaves a waxy residue - but again.. I use the streak free stuff, maybe what you use is different!

And I'm not a chemist, maybe the 3M Rep was talking out of his ass - But they have a multi-million dollar testing facility... And they said never use Windex due to the Amonia + surfactants, and to use a mild detergent like baby soap + water.

I'm a simple guy that does the installs... So if the manufacturer suggests I use something thats cheaper than windex and easier to get, I'm not going to argue and call them wrong.


And again... It's like offgassing. Some people will throw their prints on a laminator the moment it comes off their printer and they never have an issue. I say why tempt fate! If I bought a $2000 TV and it said not to use windex on it because it could ruin the screen...you'd be damn certain 20 FT around my TV would be a Windex free zone - So why use it on a $2000 roll of vinyl when its just as simple to make a baby soap bottle for installs / cleaning.


I'm not saying you're wrong - or telling you not to use Windex. It's a personal preference, if you've never had an issue... why fix what aint broken?
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
Surfactants are essentially what do the cleaning with water, pretty generic. I'm no chemist but I don't believe they are left behind on a cleaned surface.
Alcohol is probably a better cleaner but it evaporates so damn fast. I still like rapidtac cuz it smells good.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
Surfactants are essentially what do the cleaning with water, pretty generic. I'm no chemist but I don't believe they are left behind on a cleaned surface.
Alcohol is probably a better cleaner but it evaporates so damn fast. I still like rapidtac cuz it smells good.

Check out this link, specifically the "How Does Surfactant on a Surface Affect Manufacturing Processes?" Section and the fee before it.


It talks about how all the surfactants get left behind after the cleaning process and it can affect stuff like manufacturing engine blocks because it changes the surface tension.


Same principle with the glue in vinyl, imo - and it makes sense. We were always told if we clean with Windex... Follow up with a. Alcohol cleaning or two to remove any leftover residue.


I'm more curious now than before though... Just to know exactly how much if any Windex affects the bond. I'll see what Windex I have at work tomorrow and use 3ms surface test kit to compare how an uncleaned vs a dried, but windex cleaned area affects the pull force.
 

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
Surfactants are essentially what do the cleaning with water, pretty generic. I'm no chemist but I don't believe they are left behind on a cleaned surface.
Alcohol is probably a better cleaner but it evaporates so damn fast. I still like rapidtac cuz it smells good.
When it's swamp ass humid outside, especially in the mornings isopropyl alcohol is the best at drying a window for vinyl application. This morning I windex first and it never dried. I followed up with alcohol and it evaporated all the humidity on the window and allowed the masking tape to stick. It works wonders in humid air. It dries and roughens up the surface so things stick to it.
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
I'm confused, Taryn, is a girl's name and she lives in Alaska on an island. And she is a sign designer but not a sign designer and she has a boss, and her goal is to letter the big boats. Am I good so far?
Writes long texts about small bathrooms and storing banner boxes in there but no room for cast vinyl.
And this is all over some vinyl wrinkles on a truck? Bagging groceries and who owns the local grocery store with something up his butt?
I would be more concerned about muddy boots tracking in dirt when going to the bathroom.
Or, this could be a Dude whose parents already picked Taryn for a name because nobody up there could read the sonogram after the ultrasound procedure. OK, I am caught up on this post.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Tar......... I think I see or understand your biggest problem. Either reading or comprehension. You've taken so many things outta context and put an entirely different spin on anything thrown back in your face. Were you argumentative towards all your teachers in school ?? You tend to now be putting words in my mouth and defining what I'm saying and you're really wrong..... just plain wrong, but that's due to your retention skills, I now see.

Another fault, which has nothing to do with this truck is...... you tend to bring up information about things which have nothing to do with you, your predicament or nothing. It's useless baggage and you say it hoping if you dazzle us with enough useless baggage, something will stick to the proverbial sh!t fan.

There's no sense talking to you, as you don't really understand what's going on. You pretend to know some of it, but you don't. Same as with that truck.

I never said I was born perfect. I said I did things over til they went out properly..... at my expense. But you're too good for that. The customer paid you for a sh!t job and you're happy. Good for you and too bad for you and your reputation.

As for ruining it for others...... do you know how many people have come into our shop... and most likely many others on this site, with customers that are fit to be tied cause some dumb sh!t f*cked up his sign or truck or boat ?? Then, we hafta explain what they did wrong and how we can fix it. Then, they want it for free cause some dumb hack already got paid and they don't wanna pay for it again.

Nope, stick a fork in your butt, cause you're done. As for not helping noobies....... nothing further from the truth. I'll help anyone who is willing to help themselves and not give stupid-a$$ excuses and backpedal with nonsense. They don't hafta follow my advice, just be willing to learn and you certainly need a lotta learning or like I said, find a job at a tanning salon or an elevator operator.
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
My only advice is before you do the next job, stop here first. Many on here can suggest some tweaks to your layout before you send for final approval. Then others can help you decide on materials and make suggestions on technique. Then, as you are applying, if you run into a problem you can quick post on here and we already know what you are working on so it's easy to get help.

For the vinyl - I'd rather see you keep it at home and just bring the roll to work when you need it.
 

Taryn

New Member
See Taryn, you've kicked off a debate about cleaning methods... Nuggets of wisdom out of debate...
Maybe I could put that on my list of secret talents. I definitely learned about Windex if nothing else! Tex said that isopropyl alcohol works better in humid air for him, and it's about to get real humid soon so I better get on trying that here. And thank you for the advice in #45. I'll do my best not to write more novel-length responses.
My only advice is before you do the next job, stop here first. Many on here can suggest some tweaks to your layout before you send for final approval. Then others can help you decide on materials and make suggestions on technique. Then, as you are applying, if you run into a problem you can quick post on here and we already know what you are working on so it's easy to get help.

For the vinyl - I'd rather see you keep it at home and just bring the roll to work when you need it.
Thank you for the advice! I'm definitely going to be lurking more now that summer's winding down, so hopefully I can learn more from you guys.
 
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