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What should I learn from this?

bob

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
You didn't use the proper vinyl because you don't have room to store it? Really? That has to be the lamest excuse possible. And that equally lame layout. Why is it so tiny, floating around in all that space? Did you fit the job to your equipment rather than make your equipment do the job?
 
Billct2

Billct2

Active Member
Cast vinyl and proper prep of the surface would have taken care of the install issues.
(and it's apparently heresy to some but I have used plain Windex to clean most surfaces (there are exceptions) for 40 years and its has never been a problem)
 
Notarealsignguy

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
Billct2 said:
Cast vinyl and proper prep of the surface would have taken care of the install issues.
(and it's apparently heresy to some but I have used plain Windex to clean most surfaces (there are exceptions) for 40 years and its has never been a problem)
Click to expand...
Glass cleaner is pretty commonly used for automotive paint prep, there is nothing wrong with it and it is cheap. The $1 at Family Dollar works just as well as any other brands
 
U

unclebun

Active Member
You shouldn't be using intermediate vinyl for your boat licenses and names either.

The chalking paint is an issue, but most customers aren't going to get the truck repainted, and I have seen the lettering hold a long time on old box trucks.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
The problem with windex..... and certain other cleaners is that it has ammonia in it... and that interferes with the adhesives. Sometimes it might not, but you are taking chances, especially with lesser grade vinyls. If you hafta use windex, give it a good alcohol bath or two afterwards.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Maybe HIS cornhole, but not mine. I still use the old sears & roebuck catalogs I collected over the years.

So, you use that nasty ammonia to strip tint, but think it's alright to put down before you want another adhesive applied to something ?? Yep, you're making swell sense.
 
Notarealsignguy

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
Water based vs solvent based adhesives. I still would let it dry completely otherwise you will spend an eternity trying to get the vinyl to stick over those rivets.
 
Notarealsignguy

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
Texas_Signmaker said:
I got nifty tip for ya... open that JPG up and take a look.
Click to expand...
I did but I don't get it?
MiniMushroom-Red-4.jpg
 
T

Taryn

New Member
Coming back to the thread, I think I did leave out details that would have given more context but I thought weren't needed. I do understand that I sound like I'm making excuses, but that is unfortunately just how I talk and is one of the things I'm working on improving.

As far as why I used the A6 material -- we use A6 because it sticks really damn well to the boats that make up 90% of my sticky vinyl orders and has stayed on boats for at least 10 years already (8% of the remaining is signs like banners and PVC, the last 2% is mostly one-off type stickers that are meant to be silly for the fishermen's car windows). I am also not the brightest bulb in the mansion and can usually make things work, so I did think it would be fine (obviously I am wrong). The pictures of our store aren't up to date and also don't show how my banner boxes are also invading our tiny bathroom. I, quite frankly, don't have space for cast vinyl that will get used maybe 0.0001% of the time. I know that, physically, I can put things in the spaces you can point out in the pictures, but they will sit there for a pretty long time and end up crushed under the stuff that does work here. I am looking into something better, but for now it's a side project because I'd much prefer to store my vinyl on end, not on top of each other. It would be expensive to throw it all out and replace with A9 and will get me fired. I'll keep it mind, though.

As far as the building market -- when I was in middle/high school, I did work as a grocery bagger for the guy who wouldn't sell to my current boss and get the $100 later. He's just got a gargantuan stick up his butt, and now the building we were looking at is another grocery store that has an alternative healthy schtick going on. Haven't actually seen anyone walk in though, because the bigger store up the hill already does that kind of stuff. The other building was bought by an older fisherman so he could try renting space.

The truck itself -- Again, I should have asked for pictures of the stupid thing, but it's done and the guy thinks it's good so the vinyl is there to stay until we have another freak winter or somebody hits it. The truck is going to be used for storing equipment for fixing electrical and refrigeration problems, so the truck itself is not refrigerated. There are rivets, and at the time of install it was hovering around 65-70* so there wasn't any ice hanging on. It's also not going anywhere any time soon until the Refrigeration guy can also get a bigger workspace (he's operating out of his apartment from what I've heard).

The layout -- I do give it the college try (whatever that means) and try to make good layouts for people, but I'm not spending my time arguing with a fisherman that his kid's art looks like crap when he wants to spend something like $4k on a few pieces with it and thinks that means he doesn't need to know the word "no". Besides, tell them "no" enough times and they go to get it done on a very cheap site, turn around, and complain at me that it looks bad. You don't wanna know how many times I've had to explain "shop local" is not only when it's convenient (online is always more convenient for the price point). It's happened before, and it will happen again. I'd like to grocery shop and hike in peace, thank you. I don't know where he got it done either, because he came into town with the business after our old refrigeration guy retired. Also, bob? You do not wanna see the layout on the original size draft if you thought this layout was tiny. I don't remember and can't find exactly who called the layout tiny, but they definitely shouldn't look at the bike shop's truck if they think this is bad. That project is currently running about $700ish for the one side because he wants to install it on the truck himself. It was originally quoted at $1k for both sides, ignoring tax.

Why I used Windex and so on -- because, again, I am not the brightest bulb and haven't seen anything with it fail yet. I was taught to do it this certain way because the guy before me did it and then he went to film school (he was here for a year, and the guy before him was...not particularly involved in training him). I am going to see if I can't figure out how to keep something else on hand, though. Pretty much all of my experience in this field is from this exact job, so I do need to learn things (like how to account for rivets in the designing stage) and quickly, which is also why I'm here. Like Boudica pointed out, there's not a lot of options on my island (not even a Dollar Tree for letter stickers, and even (S)Ketchikan and Skagway have a Dollar Tree). The options are 1) Homeport Electronics, a marine electronics shop, 2) ACE Electronics, also a marine electronics shop, 3) Go to Anchorage or Juneau on the plane since our governor basically gutted the cheaper Marine Highway, or 4) go online with very vague ideas of what you want.

What I have learned from here and plan to implement -- while A6 is definitely serviceable for fishing boats, I should try to get (preferably) cast for vehicles and get better storage. The Windex hasn't screwed me over yet, but I should keep a soap/water or alcohol/water solution on hand for vehicles in general (I also need to learn when one is more appropriate because I do not want to fuck up someone's truck or boat with the wrong solution). There was a comment about both rivets and wrinkles in the same sentence and accounting for those is something I want to learn (as well as wrapping and printing on vinyl and screenprinting and embroidery...). Regardless of how pissed off you were at my post, thank you for the input and I'll do my best to implement it going forward.
 
jochwat

jochwat

Graphics Department
"TL ; DR", as the kids say these days.

No need to continue over-explaining the reasons you chose how to do the job. I'm sure most people following the thread this far probably skimmed or skipped right over the book you left us to read. Take the advice, continue learning, and move on to the next one. The past is done. Next job!
 
Billct2

Billct2

Active Member
On windex, ammonia evaporates just about the same as alcohol. Just don't use it as an application fluid and you are fine.
Most do 90% of install dry anyhow.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Post #33 is what's normally considered backpedaling. Like mentioned, there's no sense trying to talk anyone here into thinking or understanding your ways or methods. For the most part, when it comes to vehicles, ya pretty much did it all wrong. Here's hoping you learned and will retain much of whats written here and in OTHER threads having to do with the same issues. Remember tar, you came here asking. We explained.... some, more harsh than others, but basically all the same feedback. Your small area or lack of knowledge in my book does not lend itself well to doing the kinda job you posted of this truck. That's what gives honest people a bad image. I could never (and never have) sent anything out remotely that bad and collected money for it. I wouldn't even give it away for free. I'd make good on a sloppy horrendous job like that.

Anyway, you have excuses for just about everything you did wrong, so you're either gonna need to consider changing your thinking or maybe think about giving up signs and truck lettering and stick to your other day gig.
 
T

Taryn

New Member
And every post you made on this thread speaking to me directly has some harping on how I'm giving the industry a bad name and how I should just stop doing this job, Gino. I have stated before I say things twice in this thread now that I don't communicate well and at least once that I am working on it. Regardless of what you think I'm saying, there's no excuses or backpedaling. The context of this thread is I am asking for help, so I don't need to say in every single reply I make that I'm going to do what you guys tell me I should do instead of what I did already. Based on your past writing, you don't like newbies asking you questions but also wonder why nobody's coming into the sign industry like they did when you were my age. It's not a fault on my part if you think my giving context to something people say twenty times in the same thread is backpedaling/making excuses when to me it looks like I didn't say something clearly. You said yourself that my specific situation in a MARINE ELECTRONICS SHOP, which is very different to yours as a full ACTUAL SIGN SHOP, does not matter to you. Good for you! You've made your contribution to the conversation and now you keep harping on it to the point of killing the horse by talking.

As far as post 33 specifically, good news! It wasn't for entirely for you and only you because you didn't ask me a question after post #11. You decided to make an ass out of u and me when you decided I have no "gumption" because I decided to spare my sanity on the layout for a guy who didn't even have the truck yet. Most of that reply wasn't even for you. Guess what, though? That last sentence in that last part about how I planned to do better WAS for you because you keep going on about how I'm bad at the general position I was hired to do and making assumptions, Gino. Let's take a look at what you already said.

"You did many things wrong. Never, as in never, use windex. Wash with good soap and water, then an alcohol bath. The mud build up is oxidation and needs to be completely removed by washing and washing thoroughly. On vehicles, you use cast, not intermediate." Thank you for the feedback! I will stop doing the stupid thing and do the smart thing from now on.
"You don't seem to know what you're doing, but pretend to be." I know exactly what I'm doing, but I'm definitely not pretending it's professional in any sense. Don't know where you got that idea.

"Not buying the correct vinyl is your fault. Not prepping properly is your fault. Using wrong chemicals is your fault. Not applying vinyl with proper technique is your fault." Thank you for pointing out specific areas to improve on! I will work on getting better in those areas.
"Going way beyond your comfort zone is your fault. / You should've had enough gumption to tell him" Where did you get the idea that I'm comfortable doing anything ever? Is it your automatic idea that if something looks bad, the person who did the layout is just can't say no? Sometimes people are just stubborn, surprise surprise. I still need to pay for living, my guy.

"Post #33 is what's normally considered backpedaling" Good to know, I'll work on communicating better from the get-go going forward.
"I could never (and never have) sent anything out remotely that bad" So you were born perfect? That's what you're implying.
"Anyway, you have excuses for just about everything you did wrong" You've never talked to me in a full, real-time conversation where I WAS making excuses. I started this thread to learn what I did wrong, how to do it better, and hopefully talk about why I should do it the better way. You're a stranger making assumptions about a stranger across the country from you that has less lived experience than you.
"maybe think about giving up signs and truck lettering and stick to your other day gig." This is the day gig. I'm the singular employee doing this work for a marine electronics shop. Everywhere else that could employ me fulltime is open during my current work hours. At this point, it's not harsh feedback, you're just comfortable being an ass.

TL;DR: You've said so much that you've firmly made an ass out of yourself because a newbie doesn't talk or act the same way you do and that seems to piss you off.
Thank you for the feedback you've given me up to this point. I will do my best to do things the right way going forward, but I think from now on I'm going to be listening to notarealsignguy, Tex, and GAC05 more. As far as I've been able to tell, they try to keep the ass-ening to a minimum when talking to clueless newbies.
 
I

ikarasu

Premium Subscriber
While the amonia in Windex is bad... It's not the only problem.

It's the same reason you tell (or should) tell people not to get a car wash with wax before a vehicle install.

Windex has chemicals to make it streak free - it gives a waxy like substance and lessens the surface adhesion of the vinyl. Wipe your finger on a window and feel how much resistance you get... Then spray it with Windex ,even let it dry and then try... It leaves behind an anti streak film that's similar to a wax.

It's akin to offgsssing vinyl in a solvent printer though. Some people use it a lot and swear by it... Will it ruin your install? 9/10 times unless your drenching the vehicle with it... No. But why risk it when baby soap / water is 1/10 the price and provides no risk?
 
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