Will an HP Latex printer actually print yellow?

[bob]

Just for the hell of it try this...

Get the yellow piece looking the way you want it, convert it to a 150ppi RGB bitmap and print that at 720 dpi with a 'Perceptual' rendering intent and a high order dither algorithm.

See what you get.

Then print a few blended rectangle pairs with one rectangle some shade of yellow on one side of what you want and the other on the other side. Use 10 steps. Print these with a rendering intent of 'No Color Correction" or, failing that, "Saturation". Save your source file. If one or more rectangles in the blend sequence come out as what you're looking for, see what the CMYK or RGB mix , depending, is on those particular rectangles.

Even if either of these science experiments don't yield up exactly what you want, they might lead you to some approach that works for you.

Whatever you do, stop paying a lot of attention to the various soldato of the profile mafia. They mean well but they know little and understand nothing. The best a profilista is is a tolerable organism that might be able to be taught not to make messes in the house.

 

[P Wagner]

Just for the hell of it try this...

Get the yellow piece looking the way you want it, convert it to a 150ppi RGB bitmap and print that at 720 dpi with a 'Perceptual' rendering intent and a high order dither algorithm.

See what you get.

Then print a few blended rectangle pairs with one rectangle some shade of yellow on one side of what you want and the other on the other side. Use 10 steps. Print these with a rendering intent of 'No Color Correction" or, failing that, "Saturation". Save your source file. If one or more rectangles in the blend sequence come out as what you're looking for, see what the CMYK or RGB mix , depending, is on those particular rectangles.

Even if either of these science experiments don't yield up exactly what you want, they might lead you to some approach that works for you.

Whatever you do, stop paying a lot of attention to the various soldato of the profile mafia. They mean well but they know little and understand nothing. The best a profilista is is a tolerable organism that might be able to be taught not to make messes in the house.

The ignorance is strong with this one.

 

[CES020]

I get a lot of jobs from clients that specify a particular Pantone Spot Color and I don't have the luxury of printing out a chart and choosing some other color just because Onyx can't hit a specific named spot.

Onyx has nothing to do with whether or not you can hit some colors. If a color is out of gamut, then it's out of gamut. Pantone is NOT a chart made of all the colors CMYK printers can print, it's a reference tool to be used to try and get consistent colors. If a color cannot be reproduced on a CMYK printer, and you pick it, how's that the fault of Onyx? The problem is most people designing have zero understanding of color and think that just because it's a Pantone color, it can be printed.

The rendering intent settings matter too. What are they set to in the file? What are they set to in Onyx? The two need to match and you need to be using the right one for spot colors.

 

[ddarlak]

if your trying to print this color as a cmyk, you'll never hit it.

you need to print it as a RGB, harder to adjust, but the colors are more vibrant.

I can hit that color with my l25500 printing straight out of flexi

 

[dypinc]

Onyx has nothing to do with whether or not you can hit some colors. If a color is out of gamut, then it's out of gamut. Pantone is NOT a chart made of all the colors CMYK printers can print, it's a reference tool to be used to try and get consistent colors. If a color cannot be reproduced on a CMYK printer, and you pick it, how's that the fault of Onyx? The problem is most people designing have zero understanding of color and think that just because it's a Pantone color, it can be printed.

The rendering intent settings matter too. What are they set to in the file? What are they set to in Onyx? The two need to match and you need to be using the right one for spot colors.

This discussion was about hitting PMS 107 or 108. There is no out of gamut reason why you can't hit PMS 107 or 108 with a Latex printer. It is simply a lack of proper color management in the RIP or the operator reason.

How many different RIP have you used?

You will never know what the gamut limits of a particular printer media combination are unless you have done linearization and ink limits to find where the max is and is acceptable for what you intend to print and the media you want to use. Having done that, I have seen RIPs that can hit PMS color (that are in gamut) and I have seen RIPs that need to have their LAB values adjusted. There are also RIP that are limited and can not do that, Onyx is one of them, and may be usable by replacing one color with another. Not the kind of fiddling I want to do. This gamut limiting thing is why I have a big problem with the way HP has limited the ink density of the L300 series printers. I want to be able to see where the limits are without having to use the backlit media settings.

 

[dypinc]

if your trying to print this color as a cmyk, you'll never hit it.

you need to print it as a RGB, harder to adjust, but the colors are more vibrant.

I can hit that color with my l25500 printing straight out of flexi

Ancient cmyk for offset press condition are gamut limiting which is why RGB will give you more saturated colors, but that is no excuse or workaround for not being able to hit named spot colors, which should be characterized by proper labs values in a RIP.

 

[Hotspur]

Training is key

dypinc everything you are trying to do is available in Onyx - your frustration is down to a lack of training.
I would invest in getting someone in who is an expert in Onyx to show you where everything is and how to use it.
Criticizing some software because you don't have a good grip on it does not help anyone here.
Hitting a pantone is mainly down to the printer ink and most importantly, the media you are using - assuming you have a decent rip and know how to use it (which if you have Onyx, you do, so you are half way there)
Thus there is no way you can say a Latex should hit this color as there is no reference to what media is in use - this will dictate DeltaE not which RIP you use.
This yellow is not easy to hit due to the very good explanations above.
You can easily "Preserve Pure Hues" in the color management area of the quickset (use the help feature to guide you to the correct area of the software)
If you turn this on for yellow then a 100% yellow sent by the app in the file will remain 100% yellow in the print and not be converted by the profile.
PS the reason Onyx updates the preview every time you make a change is because it wants to show you a 100% accurate screen soft proof using the output profile and any manual edits etc.
Other rips don't do this as they are not interested in giving you a full soft proof in the same way so they don't bother updating the preview - maybe has something to do with the Onyx color guy being the Chair of the icc - no other rip vendors are even members...get fully trained or you'll end up like Bob ;-)

 

[AF]

dypinc everything you are trying to do is available in Onyx - your frustration is down to a lack of training.
I would invest in getting someone in who is an expert in Onyx to show you where everything is and how to use it.
Criticizing some software because you don't have a good grip on it does not help anyone here.
Hitting a pantone is mainly down to the printer ink and most importantly, the media you are using - assuming you have a decent rip and know how to use it (which if you have Onyx, you do, so you are half way there)
Thus there is no way you can say a Latex should hit this color as there is no reference to what media is in use - this will dictate DeltaE not which RIP you use.
This yellow is not easy to hit due to the very good explanations above.
You can easily "Preserve Pure Hues" in the color management area of the quickset (use the help feature to guide you to the correct area of the software)
If you turn this on for yellow then a 100% yellow sent by the app in the file will remain 100% yellow in the print and not be converted by the profile.
PS the reason Onyx updates the preview every time you make a change is because it wants to show you a 100% accurate screen soft proof using the output profile and any manual edits etc.
Other rips don't do this as they are not interested in giving you a full soft proof in the same way so they don't bother updating the preview - maybe has something to do with the Onyx color guy being the Chair of the icc - no other rip vendors are even members...get fully trained or you'll end up like Bob ;-)

I think his frustration stems from knowing what he wants to do but the available resources do not point him in the right direction and/or the software is sufficiently vague to cause failure at the user level. The youtube video above addresses the issue clearly, if you can get past the mullet.

 

[iSign]

...get fully trained or you'll end up like Bob ;-)

 

[Bly]

dypinc everything you are trying to do is available in Onyx - your frustration is down to a lack of training.
I would invest in getting someone in who is an expert in Onyx to show you where everything is and how to use it.
Criticizing some software because you don't have a good grip on it does not help anyone here.
Hitting a pantone is mainly down to the printer ink and most importantly, the media you are using - assuming you have a decent rip and know how to use it (which if you have Onyx, you do, so you are half way there)
Thus there is no way you can say a Latex should hit this color as there is no reference to what media is in use - this will dictate DeltaE not which RIP you use.
This yellow is not easy to hit due to the very good explanations above.
You can easily "Preserve Pure Hues" in the color management area of the quickset (use the help feature to guide you to the correct area of the software)
If you turn this on for yellow then a 100% yellow sent by the app in the file will remain 100% yellow in the print and not be converted by the profile.
PS the reason Onyx updates the preview every time you make a change is because it wants to show you a 100% accurate screen soft proof using the output profile and any manual edits etc.
Other rips don't do this as they are not interested in giving you a full soft proof in the same way so they don't bother updating the preview - maybe has something to do with the Onyx color guy being the Chair of the icc - no other rip vendors are even members...get fully trained or you'll end up like Bob ;-)

 

[dypinc]

Look, I asked for one basic function here that most other RIPs have. Read the LAB values for a spot or any other color (like a customer supplied paint chip) with a spectro. None of you Onyx apologists have point it out.

There is a lot of other basic RIP functions like grommet marks. frame marks etc. that I have yet to find. Maybe you can point that out as well.

 

[CES020]

dypinc, this might be a post that comes across wrong, so I want to try and preface it as much as I can so it doesn't. I'm asking this because I don't know and I'm trying to learn, not because I'm trying to suggest you are doing something wrong, so please take it that way.

Why are you trying to convert colors to LAB at the RIP? Illustrator doesn't have a LAB engine, it's only RGB or CMYK (or so I'm told by X-Rite (who own Pantone)), so I'm confused on how you'd use that data even if you had it. I guess I can sort of see the value of it. Grab the LAB value, use that LAB value to send something to a different device, trying to match a color? If you're only on one device, can you explain what the purpose or power of having a LAB value for that color would be?

Please, again, I'm just asking because I don't know.

 

[CES020]

Is this something different than you're talking about? It's the ability to get LAB values from a spectrophotometer under the "Swatch" area.

 

[AF]

Look, I asked for one basic function here that most other RIPs have. Read the LAB values for a spot or any other color (like a customer supplied paint chip) with a spectro. None of you Onyx apologists have point it out.

There is a lot of other basic RIP functions like grommet marks. frame marks etc. that I have yet to find. Maybe you can point that out as well.

The Onyx video a few posts backs very briefly mentions a button that will read in from a spectro and create swatches. It doesn't go into detail on the process but it looks like it will do what you need.

 

[P Wagner]

Look, I asked for one basic function here that most other RIPs have. Read the LAB values for a spot or any other color (like a customer supplied paint chip) with a spectro. None of you Onyx apologists have point it out.

There is a lot of other basic RIP functions like grommet marks. frame marks etc. that I have yet to find. Maybe you can point that out as well.

OK, here is how to capture LAB values from a physical specimen in Onyx:

1. In the main module of Onyx (RIP-Queue or Thrive) go to the Setup Menu at the top, > RIP Configuration > Color Matching Table. Note that there are two or three tabs (depending on your version of Onyx) System Defined Colors, and User Defined Colors. System defined colors are all of the myriad Pantone spot colors, as well as RAL colors. All of their LAB values are included in the database inside of Onyx.

The second tab is called User Defined Colors. This is where you go to create a new spot color.

Please see the attached screen captures for these two dialogs.

Also note that I have included a screen shot of a tool in the Media Manager module that shows a prediction of the ability to reproduce any color in either database (system or custom). Note that for the media that we have been referencing in this thread, Pantone 107 C and 108 C, the dE 2000 values are under 2, which represents a terrific round-trip match to the Pantone reference colors, for the specific media and print mode in question.

 

[P Wagner]

There is a lot of other basic RIP functions like grommet marks. frame marks etc. that I have yet to find. Maybe you can point that out as well.

Various types of trim, sewing marks and frame marks are available in Onyx, and are accessed through the QuickSet. Here are two screen shots of the basic QuickSet dialog and the Marks dialog that is accessed under the Advanced button in the lower-left corner.

Automatic insertion of grommet marks are available in the Onyx Smart Apps Illustrator plug-in, but are not in the RIP to my knowledge.

 

[MikePro]

+1 profile issue.
my quick fix, until I learn more about these onyx features discussed in the thread:
I recently had to match 3M sunflower yellow, and could not do-so with my 26500 even after I thought I had profiled it properly BUT running files with ICC Profiles OFF and setting CMYK values yourself helps to achieve those rich colors that your profiled/printed color charts might end-up lacking.

Y100 M17 ended up being spot-on with a luster overlam on IJ180Cv3.

 

[dypinc]

Various types of trim marks and frame marks are available in Onyx, and are accessed through the QuickSet. Here are two screen shots of the basic QuickSet dialog and the Marks dialog that is accessed under the Advanced button in the lower-left corner.

Things like grommet marks are available in the Onyx Smart Apps Illustrator plug-in, but are not in the RIP to my knowledge.

Are you serious? I should open my clients supplied PDF in Illustrator just to put trim and grommets marks and then re-save as a pdf. I don't need that kind of trouble. And, with so many other things going against it, this is the last straw for any Onyx consideration here.

 

[P Wagner]

Are you serious? I should open my clients supplied PDF in Illustrator just to put trim and grommets marks and then re-save as a pdf. I don't need that kind of trouble. And, with so many other things going against it, this is the last straw for any Onyx consideration here.

First, I am not with Onyx, or even a reseller who is attempting to push Onyx onto you. As my previous post clearly indicated, the trim marks functions are in Onyx (see the screen caps), it is the addition of automatic grommet marks that is not present.

Second, it sounds like your mind is made up with regards to Onyx, and that is just fine from my perspective. There are a number of very good RIP products on the market. Onyx is only one of them. Case in point, I believe that Caldera has recently added a grommet marks function in v10 that was just announced at SGIA.

Dypinc - My efforts here are directed to help the user community at large. Please feel free to disregard them going forward.

 

[SightLine]

Aside for the point of the thread and Onyx...... Illustrator has been able to give Lab color values for quite some time and I think as of CS5 (might be CS6 though), Adobe products implementation of the Pantone Plus color libraries also internally define colors as Lab values by default instead of CMYK like they used to. In illustrator assign a Pantone spot to something then in your color pallet double click the Pantone spot color - Lab values. Also FlexiSign Pro has had a "soft proof" display option on the view menu for as long as I can remember so the user can see what something will actually print like and its live, what you change is immediately visible.