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Yeah ... but paint PEELS!

rossmosh

New Member
If you haven't ordered the HDU, don't. Go get yourself .75" or 1" thick PVC for EXTERIOR use. You can probably get away with interior PVC considering your signs are going to be pretty small, but why risk it? Why do I say PVC over HDU? It's cheaper. It has a hard, smooth surface which is easier to get a high gloss finish, if that's what you want. It's more durable. In general, it's a bit easier to work with.

Second, paint doesn't just peel off unless it's done incorrectly. I've done things where paint peeled off. Why? Because I did something wrong. There are a few tricks that apply to painting, that really apply to dimensional work. The first is make sure your prep work is right. PVC is pretty easy. Sand it down with 180-220 grit. Clean it well. Lay down base coat. No primer needed. HDU is a bit more tricky. A lot of people take a garden hose and wash it off first. Then fill. Then prime. Then sand. Then potentially prime again. It depends on the finish you desire. Higher density HDU will require less work but costs a lot more. The second is let everything really dry. Most paints say you can recoat in 3-6 hours with latex paints. I wait 24 hours or more after my first coat. My second and third coats I'll do closer to the 6 hours but I'll often wait a little more. Often it's a coat when I walk in the door and one when I leave. The paint isn't going to absorb into the PVC or HDU like it will with wood. It needs to dry longer as a result.

The thing you will learn quickly doing this kind of work is you need your paints all to work together with your products. For example, if you put down a base coat of exterior Home Depot paint and then go apply your vinyl mask, it may or may not work. Why? Because if the exterior grade HD paint has various additives, it may cause the vinyl masking not to stick. When that happens, you're stuck hand painting everything which sucks if you aren't good at it. I'm fairly new at dimensional signs and I learn something new nearly every project, especially when using a different product.

For example, you couldn't pay me to use Modern Masters Gold on a v-carve sign. I read about it being a good product and many people recommend it but I would never think about using it again. You may use it and think it's great. It's a learning experience. One last thing, I only skimmed this thread for other people's responses, but in general, you're going to get a lot of mixed advice. For example, I read one or two things that are flat out wrong. You're going to have to do your research and some testing to find what works for you and what's the truth.

Sorry, one last thing. You can't call many of the companies and get good advice. I've called them all. Komacel, Duna, Precision Board, SignFoam, ect ect ect. They all had little to no advice on paint compatibility. Their stock answer is any paint will work with their product as long as you prep the material properly. What they say isn't false but it isn't entirely true either.
 

PainterDave

New Member
here are a few samples I do with HDU.
I put every finish you could think of on this stuff.
 

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decalman

New Member
:U Rock:
Wow! how many grumpy pills did you take this morning? Way to make a new member feel welcomed!

I am not asking you to "hand" me anything. I just don't want to buy a lot of paint that I cannot use.

With 675,000 miles of motorcycle riding experience under my belt both for pleasure and as a professional motorcycle courier, if YOU asked me questions about motorcycles, I certainly would no tell you to "figure it out for yourself!" I would tell you everything I could, to help you avoid a terrible accident or a costly mistake.

As for experience, I have worked (in the 80s) for several sign fab shops including federal Signs in Oceanside, CA. I made raceways and channel letters, plex faces with trim cap and foam letter cut with band saws, as well as lettering cut with table saws and other tools. I was deeply involved in making all of the signs and accessories for the Riviera Casino in Las Vegas when they had their "Splash!" show running. Look at any Chief Auto, Schucks or other auto parts store sign that is part of that chain, and you will probably see signs *I* made for them, by cutting and laying the vinyl, and assembling the cans, etc.

My CNC tables are quite capable of carving the signs out of nearly any material, and in fact, I have already carved wood, low density foams and PVC board with great success.

This is my first attempt at using and painting HDU. I am quite sure I WILL figure it out for myself, but I thought that you guys n' gals with more experience in THIS aspect of sign making might point me in the right direction.

I don't know why you are bearing your fangs, and I don't know what "Accusations" you believe I have made. I came to what I THOUGHT was a friendly forum to ask some questions about paints and primers, and you're jumping down my throat. WTF? :banghead:

Do you feel threatened by a retired guy (58) who is going to make a few signs for friends and neighbors in his HOBBY shop? It isn't as if I am going to open a nationwide chain of shops! I am ONE GUY in a small town of 8,000 people, and I can't dance. So I use my shop tools to make things, and it looks like people might want to pay a buck or two for them.

:U Rock:
 

visual800

Active Member
oil paint is not superior to latex. Ive been painting for 28 years and at one time SURE oil rocked....not any longer. If you want to prime HDU spray it with exterior flat latex and then coat with eggshell or satin exterior latex, you might need a repaint in a few years but it wont cfhip is done right.

ALSO most important is to make sure you take airhose and blow HDU clean from dust. I have insome situations finihsed a latex plaque or sign and misted alutomotive urethane clear over the whole sign. It sticks and it sure does protect
 

neato

New Member
I never trust latex outdoors. Generally I use oil based enamels.

I'm guessing this is because you haven't used latex paints in a long time. Modern exterior acrylic latex paints are far superior to oils for durability. Many paint manufacturers have 25 year or even lifetime warranties on their product. They don't peel unless the prep wasn't done correctly.

HDU doesn't even really need to be primed. 3 coats of good Exterior paint will do the trick. For a nicer finish (not glass smooth, but no brushstrokes), if you have an air compressor, these little spray guns are fantastic:

http://www.amazon.com/Critter-Spray-Products-22032-Siphon/dp/B00006FRPJ
 

rossmosh

New Member
I'm guessing this is because you haven't used latex paints in a long time. Modern exterior acrylic latex paints are far superior to oils for durability. Many paint manufacturers have 25 year or even lifetime warranties on their product. They don't peel unless the prep wasn't done correctly.

HDU doesn't even really need to be primed. 3 coats of good Exterior paint will do the trick. For a nicer finish (not glass smooth, but no brushstrokes), if you have an air compressor, these little spray guns are fantastic:

http://www.amazon.com/Critter-Spray-Products-22032-Siphon/dp/B00006FRPJ

I have a Critter and like it, but I found it very difficult to paint decent sized panels with it. It took forever and was streaky. I've since moved to a cheap HVLP with a 2.5mm tip and the results are MUCH better. Next investment will likely be a handheld Graco spray gun. They get very good reviews and can spray latex with little to no thinning.
 

The Hobbyist

New Member
If you haven't ordered the HDU, don't. Go get yourself .75" or 1" thick PVC for EXTERIOR use.

I have painted PVC. It looks great, but the paint doesn't seem to stick well. Perhaps I used the wrong paint? I do like routing PVC boards, but for this sign for a friend (and subsequent orders from neighbors in the same part of the town) I will use the HDU. I ordered 20# Precision Board in 4x8 sheets, 1" thick. The sign will be routed 1/4" to 3/8" into the face, so the back will still be thick enough.

What do you think my chances would be, of routing the pink foam from the big box stores, and spraying it with a few coats of resin to create a hard shell over a admittedly soft foam base? This is all experimentation, which apparently pisses some people off. However, they ALL use products that were developed by people who experimented with different things before arriving at the final products.

I think it was Thomas Edison who said, "I never fail. I only succeed at finding another way it will not work."


.
 

Billct2

Active Member
Nothing new, there are spray coatings for soft foams, a little research will probably create more questions, but they're out there.
 

PainterDave

New Member
blow sigh off well

prime 3 coats of automotive polyester primer with a 2.0 tip on gun

let dry for 20hours sand with 150 grit
use sikkens kombie putty to fill any big pin holes still showing
and reprime using polyester primer let dry sand 320 and paint it with whatever you want.

shouldnt have any imperfections at this point if thats what youre looking for
 

ams

New Member
oil paint is not superior to latex. Ive been painting for 28 years and at one time SURE oil rocked....not any longer. If you want to prime HDU spray it with exterior flat latex and then coat with eggshell or satin exterior latex, you might need a repaint in a few years but it wont cfhip is done right.

ALSO most important is to make sure you take airhose and blow HDU clean from dust. I have insome situations finihsed a latex plaque or sign and misted alutomotive urethane clear over the whole sign. It sticks and it sure does protect

How come Latex peels on wood out in the weather after two years with two coats and scratches off very easily like if you brush against it?
Every time I use oil based with a spray gun, it's nearly scratch proof and nothing seems to take it off.
 

rossmosh

New Member
How come Latex peels on wood out in the weather after two years with two coats and scratches off very easily like if you brush against it?
Every time I use oil based with a spray gun, it's nearly scratch proof and nothing seems to take it off.

Generally speaking, properly applied latex paint doesn't peel off outside after two years. It also doesn't scratch off easily when you brush against it. That said, some paint just sucks. My first ever project I used Sherwin Williams Resilience paint. It was a terrible experience. I tried using the left overs on a test months later with a bit more experience and it was the same terrible experience.

That's why it's important to know what products work and what products don't. That's why it's important figure out what paints are compatible with what you're doing.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Generally speaking, properly applied latex paint doesn't peel off outside after two years. It also doesn't scratch off easily when you brush against it. That said, some paint just sucks. My first ever project I used Sherwin Williams Resilience paint. It was a terrible experience. I tried using the left overs on a test months later with a bit more experience and it was the same terrible experience.

That's why it's important to know what products work and what products don't. That's why it's important figure out what paints are compatible with what you're doing.

That's the whole point behind this thread. Generalized statements are wrong, when one doesnt know what they are talking about. Anything in this industry..... and most other craftsmanship type industries are all about knowing what you are doing. Just making dumb blanket statements doesn't do anyone any good. Proper techniques, experience and knowledge is what it takes to succeed. Not trying something and throwing your hands up, because someone didn't make a utube about it is immature.
 

ams

New Member
Well also in my defense I did a large job for Army Corps and their requirements were latex paint on their park signs. But they needed a warranty of 5 years minimum. Because the sign company before me used latex paint and it lasted only 2 1/2 years. When I suggested oil based, they loved the idea and didn't know about paints. It's been two years now and they still hold up great.

You guys have your methods and I have mine. I am just going to stick with what works best for me. If your in Florida maybe latex works better with warm weather and oil doesn't. But it gets down to the single digits here and perhaps oil does better in the cold, I don't know.
 

visual800

Active Member
Well also in my defense I did a large job for Army Corps and their requirements were latex paint on their park signs. But they needed a warranty of 5 years minimum. Because the sign company before me used latex paint and it lasted only 2 1/2 years. When I suggested oil based, they loved the idea and didn't know about paints. It's been two years now and they still hold up great.

You guys have your methods and I have mine. I am just going to stick with what works best for me. If your in Florida maybe latex works better with warm weather and oil doesn't. But it gets down to the single digits here and perhaps oil does better in the cold, I don't know.

if latex that you know of peels in 2 years it must be walmart paint. And you could be correct about the south being better for latex I know here in Alabama we can ruin oil in one season! Thats why I hate Matthews Paint, in a couple years down here it looks like hell. Ill stick with urethanes and clearoat on architectural signage, and latex on all routed.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Not to bust anyone's chops, but a customer just brought back a sign we did back in 1991. 25 years ago. It's a redwood sandblasted sign. There is no peeling, no blistering, no nothing. There is mildew on it, but it fell over yesterday he said from the high winds. He then told me he was doing work and pushed \hard on the sign and loosened it. The next day it fell over. So, he wants me to refurbish it. I'll get a picture of it and show you what paint looks like 25 years later.
 

Baz

New Member
Don't skimp on the primer! Top coat use whatever you know and trust (for outdoors of course).

Spray finish is always nicer. Two coats of primer ... 2-3 coats of color.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
This sign was made in 1991 on clear heart vertical grain redwood. Even the back still looks fine.

That was all latex primer with 4 or 5 coats of 1-Shot depending on which color we're discussing. It was not sprayed. Roller and pig brush, with hand laid 23.5kt gold leaf. We will be sanding down to the bare wood and scraping out the best we can in the fins and top coating it back utilizing basically all the same colors.

Other than mildew, no paint has even started to peel or blister. When prepped correctly, the oil base paints will last a long time. I've been using them for almost 45 years. Latex, I don't know about, but they don't seem to have the history oil based paints do. I used latex back in the 70's, 80's and 90's, and none of it lasted more than about 5 to 8 years.



So again, just calling out a procedure because you don't know how or don't care to investigate, is just plain dumb. Once ya have years behind ya, then you can speak up. :thankyou:
 

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rossmosh

New Member
This sign was made in 1991 on clear heart vertical grain redwood. Even the back still looks fine.

That was all latex primer with 4 or 5 coats of 1-Shot depending on which color we're discussing. It was not sprayed. Roller and pig brush, with hand laid 23.5kt gold leaf. We will be sanding down to the bare wood and scraping out the best we can in the fins and top coating it back utilizing basically all the same colors.

Other than mildew, no paint has even started to peel or blister. When prepped correctly, the oil base paints will last a long time. I've been using them for almost 45 years. Latex, I don't know about, but they don't seem to have the history oil based paints do. I used latex back in the 70's, 80's and 90's, and none of it lasted more than about 5 to 8 years.

So again, just calling out a procedure because you don't know how or don't care to investigate, is just plain dumb. Once ya have years behind ya, then you can speak up. :thankyou:

Oil paints from 25 years ago were great. Now they aren't so much. Latex paints from 25 years ago weren't so great. Now a lot of them are. The reality is, a lot of what made oil paints really good have been taken away due to EPA regulations. As a result, pretty much every paint company out there is dumping all of their money into developing latex paints. They've essentially abandoned all work on making oil paints better and I doubt they play with the formulas unless the EPA makes them.

If you're rehabbing that sign, give 100% acrylic DTM paint a shot. It's about $50/gal. The best way I can describe it is a hybrid between a traditional paint & an enamel. When spraying, it can go down very smooth but it has a better than decent build up compared to an enamel which is traditionally a bit thinner.
 
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