Aaaaaaaaaaargh PopUP material

[Letterbox Mike]

This stuff will be the end of me.

I posted this once a while back but got no response whatsoever, so I'll try this again.

What do you people laminate Fellers PopUP material with for retractable banner stands? We've always used Sihl PosPRO 200 with lamex 3mil luster embossed polycarb laminate. Due to the overwhelming positive reviews on here we gave the Fellers PopUP a shot. Loved it, printed great and it's less than half the price of PosPRO. We used the same Lamex polycarb laminate on it.

So far, we've had 9 retractable banner stands come back with the laminate peeling off of the PopUP. There are at least 30 more out that we have not heard from yet but are of the same media/laminate combination.

Fellers claims the polycarb laminate is too rigid to use in retractables, which I don't buy because it's only 3 mils and we've used it for years on the PosPRO without a single failure.

Now, let's add insult to the injury. Not knowing what to do in the midst of failures pouring in but prior to a response from Fellers, we thought maybe the Lamex laminate was bad, so we substituted Oracal 210 matte laminate in it's place on one of the replacement banners... This banner has also returned to us with the same peeling issue.

Fellers says the calendered vinyl is too rigid for retractable stands... WTF???

Their recommendation is we use only cast laminate on the PopUP material. Ok, I can live with that, cast is still about the same cost as the polycarb, no big deal. But my bigger issue is, I could swear a few years back Fellers actually advertised the Lamex polycarb lam as "perfect for retractable banners" and I could swear I've seen posts on here stating the same.

So what gives? Did we just use the wrong combination of materials? Or is Fellers full of pooh?

 

[stickermonkey]

I'm about to print a run on a material called DisplayBack 12 mil with Sunrise Reli-A-Lam 4.5 mil DisplayTexx. Bought it here in Canada from IMAC Imaging Alignment Corp. Hope I don't have trouble. I'm kinda procrastinating because I'm sorta nervous to give this new material a try. Did you wait long enough before laminating...off gasing can take a while sometimes.

 

[Letterbox Mike]

Yup, nothing gets laminated within24 hours, most of these were laminated 48+ hours after printing. And we run an infrared dryer on full blast on our printers to help speed drying. Outgassing was not the issue here. I wish it was, at least it would be easy to diagnose then...

 

[stickermonkey]

Hope you make out ok with the issue and that Fellers helps you get to the bottom on it. Good luck!

 

[daveb]

Go back to the PosPRO, is it really worth the hassle? Sorry, I go back to the days when there was 3M or 3M. There's so many companies putting out so much stuff, and I honestly believe they don't have a clue (or care) whether it'll preform in the field, they just start making excuses. I've seen more failures in the last 2 years than I had in the previous 20, all because people are after the cheapest product they can find and unlike yourself they may or may not stand behind their product. The former manager of our graphics dept. got caught up in that and now I'm having to deal with the consequences. The boss did too when he was listening to the bottom line costs, his father still hangs around the shop and his favorite saying is... "good stuff aint cheap and cheap stuff aint good". The old boy's, right you gotta learn where to draw the line. Educate your customers and they'll understand, if they don't they get what they deserve.
Nuff said

 

[Letterbox Mike]

I agree with what you're saying... The thing is, the PopUP actually prints better than the PosPRO. It's a better looking product and customers are thrilled with it (aside from the obvious laminate flaking off thing). I have no problem using it if it's just a matter of finding the right laminate, as long as there are no more failures. But I agree. We've tried here and there to switch materials just to save a buck and it never fails to bit us in the ass one way or another. It's just not worth it most of the time. There are time when finding more cost effective ways of doing something are critical, this is one of those time unfortunately.

Actually, there are alot of POSpro alternatives in the same price range as the POPup (actually, there is no other product for retractable stands thats anywhere near as expensive as POSpro, that stuff is way overpriced). The unrealistically high price of POSpro makes it hard to be competitive (not the cheapest, but competitive on a real level), finding a quality but less expensive replacement was really important. I chose to go with the POPup because alot of people here claimed it's an excellent product and prints well. Apparently it just doesn't laminate well...

So who eats it? Us or Fellers? Talk about a gray area...

 

[daveb]

No gray area, we both now the answer to that. At the best they replace the material, labor-ink-reputation... all costs that'll never never be recovered. I fee your pain, been there. As far as VPOSpro, maybe it's overpriced for a reason, if you've got a Cadillac you don't sell it for a Yugo price do you? Apparently you can't polycarb laminate a Yugo. Just sayin':Big Laugh

 

[stickermonkey]

I was advised that the purpose of the lam is both to increase the regidity and prevent possible surface damage when the customer is handling the panels. I'm printing my first pop up graphics now. so far soooooo good. I'll be working 24 hrs a day to get this job out the door. The trade show is this weekend!! LOL

 

[Typestries]

Good god, anyone here actually likes pospro? That crap stinks. FWIW scrimless blockout banner with matte lam works great for popups. I gave up on POSpro long ago. Printing and laming that stuff was a total trainwreck.

 

[grafixemporium]

We've been using Popup with 210 matte lam for a few months now on retractables and other static banner stands. It makes for a beautiful display. Haven't heard of any failures... yet. I'll be knocking on wood though.

In your experience, how long does it take for the lam to fail?

Let us know if you find a better lam for the popup!

 

[JR Digital]

I've made them with PosPRO with Seal Deep Crystal overlam. Much cheaper solution that is a durable as using polycarb with TSG12.

A couple of tips when laminating for retractables. Make sure the tension from the overlam roll is not too tight. Once you run it through, lay it on a flat surface overnight. Should help

 

[stickermonkey]

I've made them with PosPRO with Seal Deep Crystal overlam. Much cheaper solution that is a durable as using polycarb with TSG12.

A couple of tips when laminating for retractables. Make sure the tension from the overlam roll is not too tight. Once you run it through, lay it on a flat surface overnight. Should help

So...do you trim the prints before or after the lam?? I'll be laming tomorrow and would want to let them sit for the remainder of the day and night on a table flat ...but as this is my first pop up I'm interested in some tips & tricks! thx

 

[Letterbox Mike]

In your experience, how long does it take for the lam to fail?

Every one of these has failed after being rolled in in the retractable base for no more than 2-3 days max.

 

[Letterbox Mike]

You don't have to laminate them, just like you don't have to laminate anything, but it improves durability. Retractable banners are subjected to alot of abuse, between transporting them and setting them up and tearing them down the chances for scratching or scuffing the graphic are siginficant. Most people that put them up at exhibits tend to not care or be in a hurry so their concern isn't always for caring for the banner.

 

[OCsteve]

We use Pop Up for all our retractables and never laminate. None have come back.

 

[Rodan68]

I did some tradeshow graphics and retractables with POPUP. Laminated the tradeshow graphics w/ 15mil polycarbonate and the retractables with 3mil cal Lamex. Had an extra tradeshow graphic rolled up in the shop. Looked at it today and there was delaminating and the POPUP material itself was splitting into two parts (the gray on the back was coming off). None of my customers has mentioned any failure but it makes me a little nervous. Probably won't be using it again.

 

[gabagoo]

Any comments on this???

I use that pet15oz material for our retractables and have not laminated one of them. None have come back, although when retractables do come back, it's not because they were scratched or scuffed, it was because some doofus pulled the banner right off the roller!!!! and of course I charge em full whack to reprint and reinstall

 

[Letterbox Mike]

I did some tradeshow graphics and retractables with POPUP. Laminated the tradeshow graphics w/ 15mil polycarbonate and the retractables with 3mil cal Lamex. Had an extra tradeshow graphic rolled up in the shop. Looked at it today and there was delaminating and the POPUP material itself was splitting into two parts (the gray on the back was coming off). None of my customers has mentioned any failure but it makes me a little nervous. Probably won't be using it again.

Interesting to hear this. I'm starting to think this stuff is just junk all around, at least if you put any sort of laminate on it. We finally gave up on the POPup and just went back to POSpro 200+ for the retractables. We've actually been doing them without laminate as well, I find the durability is fine and this whole situation has made me nervous to continue to do so. We've started doing some on 13oz Bantex No-Curl matte banner as well and it seems to work pretty well. It's tough to get good vibrant images on though, it really soaks up ink...

 

[jmcnicoll]

We print our banner stands on our Aqueous printer on a 5mil display film and then run a 5mil textured lam and 3 mil gloss low (both thermal) on the back. Makes a very durable graphic that's better than most out there!!! Call Bigdog Media Solutions and ask for Barrett.

Jim

 

[Farmboy]

Forgive me my ignorance but why can't a liquid lam be used on these? Just curious. I understand making them more rigid with roll lam., but is that the only reason?