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Acrylic outgassing... How long?

M

max

New Member
I know for sure that there are other threads somewhere pertaining to this question, but damn if i can find one (been looking for 30 minutes).
I am replacing some acrylic faces(3/16) in a lighted sign. Just got done removing the paper protective covering form the faces. I do know that i am supposed to wait a bit before applying cut vinyl graphics to it, but no sure how long. Anyone have any experience with a safe amount of time to wait to let it outgas? thanks so much for any info or conventional wisdom...
 
natedawg9640

natedawg9640

New Member
No answer from me but a bit of general tip regarding this. Do NOT use 3M controltac adhesive on polycarb faces. It reacts and will continually bubble.
 
oldgoatroper

oldgoatroper

Roper of Goats. Old ones.
In all the years I've been putting vinyl on plexi faces, I have never once heard of this and never had a problem occur because of it.

In fact, we usually kept the paper on right up until application of vinyl to keep it clean.

Acrylic is a hard, chemically-stable (mostly) plastic unlike polycarbonate which is soft, and subject to damage from many more fluids than acrylic is.

Maybe you're thinking of polycarbonate faces?
 
oldgoatroper

oldgoatroper

Roper of Goats. Old ones.
natedawg9640 said:
polycarb is soft? lol. polycarb is bullet proof.
Click to expand...


...and it's bulletproof (mostly), because it is soft.

Acrylic is a hard plastic and a scratch can be buffed out and polished. Polycarb is soft, will scratch much easier than acrylic and can't be polished (because it is too soft).

If you have a piece of plastic and you're not sure if it is acrylic or polycarb, a quick and easy test is to run a utility blade along the sharp edge of a corner almost like you were wittling down the sharp edge of a wooden block with a hunting knife.

If the plastic is polycarb, you should be able to carve a long, flexible sliver from the corner. If its acrylic, all you'll get are little chunks and chips.
 
M

max

New Member
Huh??? Well maybe this is something i dreamed up one night after a long Sunday of football and 2 or 12 adult beverages. anyhow please forget i asked. And definitely appreciate ya'll setting me straight. guess that also explains why i couldnt find any threads on the subject...
thanks again
 
Pat Whatley

Pat Whatley

New Member
No, you didn't dream it. It comes up all the time and I can sum up the answers for you:
------------------------------------
Group A - Yes, it outgasses. I had a sign get so many bubbles the lettering fell off. Now I order it a year ahead of time and pull off the plastic/paper and let it breath. I flame it before lettering. It's the professional way to do it.

Group B - It's never outgassed and caused me a problem and I use 10,000 sheets a year. Those people are idiots.

Group C - Acrylic is the wrong material for the job and you're using the wrong vinyl and you should hand letter it and why are you even in the sign business if you don't know the answer to this question and it doesn't matter how much you're charging it's not enough and you shouldn't be talking about it in an open forum anyway..

Personally I've always questioned outgassing. If it's such a problem how come I've never gotten a sheet that had the protective covering bubbled?
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
There are probably 100's of threads about this stuff and they all complain about outgassing in any of the electric sign faces regardless of what manufacturer made it after seeing tiny bubbles appearing in the vinyl.

Some lunkhead says it's outgassing. The supposed idea is that polymers used to make the particular product are trapped inside the product and for some reason decide to migrate to the surface at a certain point, thus creating bubbles in any obstructing objects, such as vinyl and ruining some poor sign shop's sign.

Problem is, we've never had that problem when screen printing on these same products, we never had when hand painting on these products and we never had it when airbrushing these products. I guess the migrating particles could pass through the paint without noticing it. However, now you have sign shops complaining about 100's of tiny bubbles suddenly appearing in their vinyl after a few hours. I can't say I never saw it, but if applied properly, I rarely, if at all ever see this phenomenon. I believe this is truly application failure. Correct application of vinyl on any substrate will never yield any bubbles. No magic gasses coming out.

Here's one I have seen. Painting an MDO board with primer and top coating it with three coats of oil-based paint, then putting vinyl down a day or two later..... That will bubble up for you. The paint needs to dry and evaporate and it can only do it through the top of the paint and if vinyl is in it's way, it will bubble it up. As for lexan and other sign faces.... I don't really believe it. It's a way in which the manufacturer's are taking the blame away from the applicator and placing it on the product. Why can't it just simply take the path of least resistance and outgas to the other side ??
 
Wiggum PI

Wiggum PI

New Member
The 'outgassing' on acrylic only comes into play when the vinyl fails and the supplier is looking for something else to blame...
 
natedawg9640

natedawg9640

New Member
I'm still at a loss regarding the "testing method of shaving the edge" sounds backwards to me.

Controltac adhesive DOES react and cause gassing. Call and ask 3m if you don't believe it. Our supplier didn't even know.
 
J

john1

Guest
i installed a full coverage digi print on 2 faces the other day instantly, no issues here.
 
Custom_Grafx

Custom_Grafx

New Member
I can't believe no one has given this guy the truth yet lol.

1) Acrylic does outgas, it's a fact.
2) Vinyl is porous, so doesn't bubble up (not in my, and looks like all the above people's experience anyway).
3) The only self adhesive film that will give you problems on acrylic, is polyester film (such as gold/silver chrome), because it is not porous, and will bubble if the substrate is releasing gas.

To test the above is true, without the use of any electron microscopes, please freshly peel some acrylic, stick on some vinyl, and next to it, stick on some polyester gold chrome, and revisit in a couple of days or whatever. You'll see the chrome has bubbled, where as the vinyl has not.

Pat, I'm guessing that mask doesn't bubble because like vinyl, it is also porous.

In short, I wouldn't worry about it. Like anything though, make sure you wipe nice and clean with IPA in case the mask has left any residue.
 
Techman

Techman

New Member
Outgassing on acrylic or polycarb or glass or aluminum is a fantasy. I used over 300 plastic panels, hundreds of windows, dozons of aluminum panels and never had a single instance of out gassing. Not one. Never. I never washed those panels with alcohol. I never let them sit to air out. I just peeled the liner and applied the vinyl.

Blisters, yes I have observed some blisters but only after a noob tried to apply vinyl.

I have never observed any vinyl or metallic or metal layer including Mylar ever blister from anything other than poor application.

To me, using that magic alcohol wipe is just a waste of time. It doesn't do anything except stink up the place and enter your skin and poison your brain. .

I never knew one single person who personally had an "outgassing" panel. I never knew one single person who had first hand knowledge of one. I have read posts about them over the years but those turned out to be bad application.

I have asked this question ever since I heard of that fantasy of outgassing way back in 1998. Why doesn't the liner bubble? I asked it so many times and so has many others. Why doesn't the liner have bubbles? It doesn't. There is no high velocity gas movement.

Why is there NOT holes in the plastic if there was outgassing going on? One would think after time there would be a noticeable change in the plastic surface if there was.

What about when the company applies their liner. Do they have outgassing? No they do not. That liner is applied right there in the factory when the moving molecules would be at their highest density. But no. They do not have blistered liners. Simple. There is no such thing as outgassing. At least not in the amount one would see when applying a vinyl letter.

Once we took a liner and made it into a balloon and filled it to see if it leaked. Nope. two days later it was still firmly inflated. It didn't leak at all. So that idea that liner is porous is another fantasy.

Blister vinyl on plastic is caused by improper installing. That is ll there is.

I observed a noob appying vinyl to aluminum and have pickle skin. The very same texture as he had on plastic. Doesn't matter. Bad technique will show up on just about any smooth surface including glass.

Those instances of outgasssing is actually air being compressed under the vinyl while laying vinyl down.. It slowly but surely pushes the vinyl back up just like rivets push up a tent.

Outgassing. Bah Humbug.
 
S

SqueeGee

New Member
We did a job with second surface application on 3/8" thick clear acrylic. Being that it was a second surface install in a POP setting, the application had to be flawless. And it was when we laid it down with our laminator right after we removed the sticky craft paper like protective sheet. The next day, however, it was full of small bubbles. Call it what you want but I call that out gassing and now wait 24 hours after removing the protective film before applying anything.
 
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