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Banners, windows, shirts etc. for franchises like "Pruvit" "31" "Tupperware" etc.

Stacey K

I like making signs
I've been asked to make some banners, shirts and window graphics for a gal opening up a craft store who will be selling Pruvit also. She wants me to do the banners because she said they are pricey to buy from the franchise. She likes my sweatshirts better than the franchise also.

If they are selling for the franchise are they allowed to use the logo or do they have to buy everything from the franchise? I've heard about people doing this with Tupperware and it's a big no-no.
 

chester215

Just call me Chester.
from : The pruvit website

7.
Use of Trademarks, logos and trade names.Promoters are prohibited from copying or using the Pruvit name, or Pruvit trade names, logos, sales materials, company literature, trademarks, or any web-site content, except in materials provided or created by Pruvit or approved in writing by Pruvit prior to use by Promoter. By agreeing to these Terms and Conditions, I understand that any unauthorized use or duplication of Pruvit trade names, trademarks or copyrighted materials is a violation of this Agreement and applicable federal and state laws.
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
from : The pruvit website

7.
Use of Trademarks, logos and trade names.Promoters are prohibited from copying or using the Pruvit name, or Pruvit trade names, logos, sales materials, company literature, trademarks, or any web-site content, except in materials provided or created by Pruvit or approved in writing by Pruvit prior to use by Promoter. By agreeing to these Terms and Conditions, I understand that any unauthorized use or duplication of Pruvit trade names, trademarks or copyrighted materials is a violation of this Agreement and applicable federal and state laws.
Well that was a quick answer, thank you! Guess I'll be telling her no!
 

unclebun

Active Member
Usually with companies like these, the franchisee has to get the approved logos, you have to be set up as an approved vendor, and then everything has to be approved by corporate before you produce it. With some companies, once you are approved as a vendor they send you the logos along with a 500 page pdf of rules concerning their use.

Usually signs and banners from the franchise's approved vendor are far cheaper than what you can produce, so it bears asking her what the price is before you bother.
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
If she is the franchisee she can probably get you what you need or an approval on the layout. They restrict the franchisees in order to keep the branding uniform. I'm not saying that you couldn't get in trouble for it but more than likely it would fall back on her for breach of contract. It's be pretty tough to challenge you in court for making something for someone that legitimately operates the franchise and is essentially allowed to use their name/trademark.
 

FireSprint.com

Trade Only Screen & Digital Sign Printing
I don't want to be the guy that operates in the gray area here. Buuuut, if she goes to one of the big online printers, designs a basic banner, and pays for it...she will get her banner.

Not saying it's right, but she's really the one on the hook here - especially if it's her artwork she sends you to print.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I don't want to be the guy that operates in the gray area here. Buuuut, if she goes to one of the big online printers, designs a basic banner, and pays for it...she will get her banner.

Not saying it's right, but she's really the one on the hook here - especially if it's her artwork she sends you to print.
You better look that up in your funkin wagnal booklet. She (the customer) can do whatever she wants and can even get in trouble with her company for using an unauthorized vendor, but whoever pushes the print button is who gets in trouble for infringements and all that other sticky messy crap. The party fabricating or producing wrongful artwork is at fault.
 

a77

New Member
If she supplies files, how are you to interpret if you're allowed to print it or not? Just because something something about tupperware?

She might have permission, she might not. You could say that about any artwork you are given, by anybody. Gino checks against the copyright registry before he prints anything...
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
You or her are not in violation of using or misusing any copyrights or trademarks. She owns and operates a franchise, she may be violating her contract which is a civil matter but she is not misrepresenting the brand or using it in a way that causes confusion.
If you make lawn mowers and call them ford and go sticking ford logos all over them then it's a different story but the guy that printed you the logos would likely not have any issues because he is not the one using them. The crux of these arguments falls on causing confusion which falls on usage, not making them. The girl that owns a subway franchise and has some local guy make a banner would not be in violation of any trademark/copyrights. Her violation would simply be with the franchisor about where she can buy them by her contractual agreement or her following branding guidelines. It's not on the back of the signmaker to follow branding, it's on the person using it.
 

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
I don't want to be the guy that operates in the gray area here. Buuuut, if she goes to one of the big online printers, designs a basic banner, and pays for it...she will get her banner.

Not saying it's right, but she's really the one on the hook here - especially if it's her artwork she sends you to print.

I was under the impression that the printers would get into trouble for printing trademarked/copyrighted etc images.
As there is a feature in some RIP software that can stop trademark files from getting RIPed. (i've never used it or tried it, but i've seen the checkbox)

If you have full automation - from web straight to print, you would have disclaimers in place to avoid getting in trouble.
 

signage

New Member
I hope none of you back yard lawyers get caught up in something like this. It will most likely cost you more than you made on the job. Contracts and written available information that you didn't research doesn't let you off the hook! You run a business and claim you are professional good luck!
 

FireSprint.com

Trade Only Screen & Digital Sign Printing
I suppose what I should have said is "Not saying it's right, but she [the Pruvit lady] is realistically the one on the hook here - especially if it's her artwork she sends you to print."

I am not a lawyer. Just a printer. signage is right. I am just speaking to my experience. The low hanging fruit (The lady that is part of Pruvit) will get a warning, she'll throw her banner away and everyone moves on. That's what will most likely happen - if anything happens at all.

Stacey K TLDR; you shouldn't print this banner for her without permission from Pruvit. Unfortunately someone else will. That printer, with almost 100% certainty, will get away with it and keep the $20 in profit. :doh:
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
If they are franchisee, ironically, they are licensed to use the logos and other assets that are given to them under contract. Technically, the franchisee doesn't own those assets in the traditional sense. The ownership is still with the franchisor. Very much what happens with other types of products (such as software).

The franchisor also tend to have contracts with specific vendors for goods. If a franchisee goes rogue, that's a violation of the contract. The franchisee may not take the hit directly, but the franchisor may and then there may be some passive aggressive method of trying to recoup their loss done to the franchisee(s). May not be direct, but I wouldn't be surprised if payments to the franchisor from the franchisees do go up etc.

a77, here in the states, we are actually obligated to do reasonable research to make sure that the client owns the rights. Key word "reasonable". "Head in the sand", "hear no evil, speak no evil" really isn't acceptable. As a professional in any industry, there are requirements over just what the layman is able to get away with.

The odds of getting caught thing, plays a part. May never get caught, and able to pocket that profit all the time. When I hear the argument that something is OK as the odds of getting caught are so low, not to worry about it. I also have to wonder what else is the vendor willing to do if the odds of getting caught (and repercussions for the action) are low enough for that particular company/person?

Make no mistake, it will more then likely get done. Not saying it won't.

Ideally, they should get permission, in some instances, they may not be able to use the exact logo that they want to use, but there may indeed be a variant that the company is willing for them to use (which depending on the variant, your customer may not like that too much) that may not be subject to whatever contracts that they have with other vendors.
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
This is all great, thank you everyone! It's good to know all of this for these instances, which rarely happen to me - very few people have asked me to do such things for franchises. I did some for a glass place but the district manager sent me the artwork and guidelines - it was all legit.

I wanted to ask the question specifically because this gal told me another seller in the area (who owns the local store where she sells this stuff) is furious with her for "stomping on her territory" and has sent several nasty emails telling her she will "take her down" etc. IDK if that's exactly true or not, although there's likely some truth to it. #catfight #smalltowndrama

I'm really not too worried about doing it but I don't care much for drama, which is what she seems to have right now - I had enough of that when I was married LOL

The main business will be her craft store and the side business the Pruvit. I'll do the craft graphics but will probably stay away from the Pruvit stuff.
 

Boudica

Back to "educational purposes"
This is all great, thank you everyone! It's good to know all of this for these instances, which rarely happen to me - very few people have asked me to do such things for franchises. I did some for a glass place but the district manager sent me the artwork and guidelines - it was all legit.

I wanted to ask the question specifically because this gal told me another seller in the area (who owns the local store where she sells this stuff) is furious with her for "stomping on her territory" and has sent several nasty emails telling her she will "take her down" etc. IDK if that's exactly true or not, although there's likely some truth to it. #catfight #smalltowndrama

I'm really not too worried about doing it but I don't care much for drama, which is what she seems to have right now - I had enough of that when I was married LOL

The main business will be her craft store and the side business the Pruvit. I'll do the craft graphics but will probably stay away from the Pruvit stuff.
territories? take downs? wow the crafting industry is getting cut throat!
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
territories? take downs? wow the crafting industry is getting cut throat!
At $6.50 per serving and you need 2 servings a day...I can see why it's cut-throat! Crazy! I wish I could share with you the FB page of the other store owner. You would die of laughter, she's nut over this stuff. She also has a FB page for her cats.

I'm starting to think I live in a very strange town...LOL
 

a77

New Member
If they are franchisee, ironically, they are licensed to use the logos and other assets that are given to them under contract. Technically, the franchisee doesn't own those assets in the traditional sense. The ownership is still with the franchisor. Very much what happens with other types of products (such as software).

The franchisor also tend to have contracts with specific vendors for goods. If a franchisee goes rogue, that's a violation of the contract. The franchisee may not take the hit directly, but the franchisor may and then there may be some passive aggressive method of trying to recoup their loss done to the franchisee(s). May not be direct, but I wouldn't be surprised if payments to the franchisor from the franchisees do go up etc.

a77, here in the states, we are actually obligated to do reasonable research to make sure that the client owns the rights. Key word "reasonable". "Head in the sand", "hear no evil, speak no evil" really isn't acceptable. As a professional in any industry, there are requirements over just what the layman is able to get away with.

The odds of getting caught thing, plays a part. May never get caught, and able to pocket that profit all the time. When I hear the argument that something is OK as the odds of getting caught are so low, not to worry about it. I also have to wonder what else is the vendor willing to do if the odds of getting caught (and repercussions for the action) are low enough for that particular company/person?

Make no mistake, it will more then likely get done. Not saying it won't.

Ideally, they should get permission, in some instances, they may not be able to use the exact logo that they want to use, but there may indeed be a variant that the company is willing for them to use (which depending on the variant, your customer may not like that too much) that may not be subject to whatever contracts that they have with other vendors.
Hey WildWest - what would you say is "reasonable research"?

Stacey has done her smalltown research and knows allllll the gossip. I don't see how that applies to the professionals in the sign industry. The word "professional" is interesting here too. We can act in a professional manner, conduct business professionally. But is there such a thing as a "sign professional"? Usually that term is reserved for heavily regulated professions like lawyers/doctors etc.

So if you run your shop and don't care or know what the product is, do you send the artwork to your lawyer before printing?

I think it's a reasonable assumption that if a client gives you artwork, you can assume they have the rights to get it printed. If they ask you "go to this website, and take the image and retrace it..", that's a different story.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Stacey has done her smalltown research and knows allllll the gossip.

I wouldn't necessarily call small town gossip research. May be fun to listen to (it just depends), but doesn't always lend itself to the most accurate of "research".

I don't see how that applies to the professionals in the sign industry. The word "professional" is interesting here too. We can act in a professional manner, conduct business professionally. But is there such a thing as a "sign professional"? Usually that term is reserved for heavily regulated professions like lawyers/doctors etc.
Almost all businesses are regulated to some point. Now barrier to entry, that is something where lawyers, doctors, accountants, vets etc that is something different.

Is signage not regulated in some fashion? Some signage that needs people with certain education to "sign" off on etc (structural loads, electrical etc)? Some municipalities have their own restrictions on size and other considerations as well. Localization and special needs regulation? The type of regulation may be different, but regulation is regulation none the less. Some of it is bunk to get extra money for sure, but regulation is regulation.

I'm not saying people have to be an expert, but if one is going to be in business (which makes one a professional in my mind), then there is also the expectation that there will be more research done on "your" part. If one doesn't want to do that, or feel that it's not their job to do that, well that's fine. It may not work out in the long run, but that's fine if that is the method one wishes to do.


So if you run your shop and don't care or know what the product is, do you send the artwork to your lawyer before printing?
Most images have metadata in them (I know I use that on all my original designs). Google reverse image search. Does one have to do every design that way, I would say not, but I certainly would do the ones that seem dubious. Although based on previous answers from other threads, that wouldn't work out either.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that if a client gives you artwork, you can assume they have the rights to get it printed. If they ask you "go to this website, and take the image and retrace it..", that's a different story.
Really? Someone comes in with a vector of a Disney character and you think that John/Jane Doe has the ability to get it printed? Now Disney/Marvel/Lucas Film (and whatever else they own) is an easy example, but the same could be said for lesser known brands as well. Even if they come from the Disney store, say a manager, I wouldn't touch it. Bare in mind, Disney was going after a person that posted a picture of a toy that they bought from a retailer that sold it to them too early (it was before The Force Awakens was released). I could understand them going after the company that sold the product before they were allowed to (Disney was arguing that it released info before the movie was released or something along those lines), but they went after someone that posted a picture of a toy that they had legitimately purchased.

Here in the states, especially, it is geared for companies to be more pro active then anything. Even if they are in the wrong, do you actually think that any one of us could survive that type of litigation if it went that far (there are steps, cease and desist etc, so it won't actually get that far from the get go)? Only way around that is if there was public outcry (like what happened to Bass Pro a few yrs back).

I knew some embroiderers (yes embroiderers, not sign people mind you) that got into trouble because they were selling embroidery of Disney designs that came with their Disney special edition machine. Their license did not allow them to sell even the finished product (usually there is a distinction between reselling the actual design file versus the finished good, they weren't allowed to sell the finished good according to their license (which how many people really read?)).

I keep on mentioning Disney and that is an extreme example, however, bare in mind, Disney is also the reason why we have these type of laws as well (at least in my estimation, so take that for what it's worth). Nintendo would be another one, although they have at times been more forgiving then others.
 

a77

New Member
Lots going on there, but I have to ask:

You're working day to day, files coming in all the time. Some tupperware lady comes in and wants some signage, provides you files (raster, vector, who cares...).
What do YOU do as a professional to reasonably research the lawfulness of you printing this customers stuff?

Your example about a Disney character... I don't know what a Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm character looks like. I don't watch cartoons or superhero movies, I'm busy trying to work. How am I supposed to know what is legal to print?

I would say all quotes/invoices should say "customer owns all supplied artwork... etc..etc.."
 
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