bubbles form on laminate film days later

[pixel_pusher]

I printed some trade show booth panels on 18 mil rigid PVC, then applied OptiKoat 5mil crystal laminate. We cut the panels, applied the velcro and magnetic strips, and sent it all out the door, and everything was fine. The customer said that during and after the show (3 days later) the film started to bubble in places and about 1/16" around the trimmed edges started peeling.

I'm using a Roland VP-40 and RS cold laminator. Do you think the problem lies in kind of laminate film used, the lack of proper outgassing time or something else?

 

[natedawg9640]

lack of outgassing IMO. Inks need to cure longer.

how soon did you laminate? we wait 24 hours minimum

 

[luggnut]

did it get rolled up backwards... should be print/lam side out

 

[Techman]

outgassing is a myth.

 

[pixel_pusher]

It was rolled print/lam side out, but the outgassing time was just a few hours. Another possible problem is that the panels were rolled too tight.

 

[GAC05]

They don't call it outgassing but the tech bulletins from 3M recommend 12 to 24hr cure time before lamination or cutting when printing with solvent inks on their "IJ" materials.

Product Bulletin PIJ180/180C:

Inadequate drying can result in graphic failure including curling, increased shrinkage and
adhesion failure, which are not covered under warranty.
Always build enough time into your process to ensure adequate drying of the graphic.
Poorly dried film may become soft and stretchy, and the adhesive may become too
aggressive. This can cause difficulty when applying an overlaminate, rolling or applying the
graphic. See the ink's Instruction Bulletin for more details.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Ken1f]

outgassing is a myth.

tell that to my wife.

 

[J Hill Designs]

tell that to my wife.

 

[Techman]

I'lll bet most of our wives will comfirm outgassing.

But not on prints or under vinyl.

and about 1/16" around the trimmed edges started peeling.

The trimming caused the problem. I don't know how but using a trimming blade along the edge always causes that efect.

And I simply cannot believe outgassing causes bubbles on a print. I believe outgass its a fantasy.

The printer lays down at most 3 milliliters of ink per square foot. Can anyone imagine just how much that is? It's almost nothing. It's mere molecules. It's less than a drop spread over many square inches. There is no way the vapors from that tiny amount will build up enuf to cause bubbles.

Ink dries almost instantly when it is printed. Yes?
That is the time it releases the most vapor. An hour later there is almost no more drying going on. At least not enuf to cause bubbles.

 

[GAC05]

This is from their Product tech bulletin when using 3M solvent based inks.
It might not apply to 3rd party or eco solvent inks:

About Solvent Ink Printing
Effect on
Printed Images
Normally, very small amounts of retained solvent will not affect the finished graphic
characteristics or application performance. Excessive solvent must be removed through
proper drying prior to applying graphic protection (overlaminate or clear). If it is not, the
graphic protection will trap excessive retained solvents. This softens the film and allows the
solvent to migrate into the adhesive. Softened film is more likely to stretch, curl, bubble, lift off the liner, pucker, or shrink when handling and during graphic application. In addition, the solvent in the adhesive will contribute to more aggressive adhesion. The result is poor application characteristics. Also see About Drying Printed Film on page 7.

About Drying Printed Film
Completely and Properly
Dry Printed Film
Be sure you have read the section, About Solvent Ink Printing, page 4.
• Use the highest printer dryer setting that does not distort or damage the film.
• Slower printing speed allows the film to be in the dryer longer for more effective drying.
• Additional drying options
- An auxiliary dryer may be used to complete the drying.
- You can air dry on racks, although it is less effective than oven drying. Typical air
drying at 270% total ink coverage is 12 hours; higher total ink coverage may need
up to 24 hours.
- Reducing total ink coverage reduces retained solvents and reduces drying time.
• Troubleshooting
- Change the temperature or drying times only only if you observe problems.
- Too much heat in the drying process may result in any of the following. Reduce the
heat to correct the problem.
• Film problems, including liner blisters and film shrinkage.
• Transport problems in the printer.
• Wrinkling when the printed film is overlaminated or premasked.
- The drying time varies for each film and the total ink coverage of its image.
• To check dryness, use the Dryness Test, below.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Gino]

Wayne.... whaddaya know.... you're on an island and it's about to tip over and we're supposed to believe you on this one ?? :ROFLMAO:

 

[GAC05]

Geno it's all good,
even if the island tips and I get dunked - healthcare passed so any ill effects from soaking in sea water are covered....

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Gino]

I don't think so. That'll be a pre-existing condition since the island has always had this tendency with too many people on it and you didn't move to prevent this from happening.....

Okay... you're right.... all's good. Don't want some kidding around to be mistaken for NHB crap.

 

[gbarker]

Wayne.... whaddaya know.... you're on an island and it's about to tip over and we're supposed to believe you on this one ?? :ROFLMAO:

Do you have to keep the number of people even or their combined weight?

As for outgassing, I personally think it is a way out for the manufacturers. They know we are in a rush and can't always wait 24 hrs to print, laminate and get the job out the door. I print with Eco ink so maybe that's why I've never had a problem.

 

[Gino]

Do you have to keep the number of people even or their combined weight?

Yes.
​

 

[thewood]

Ink dries almost instantly when it is printed. Yes?
That is the time it releases the most vapor. An hour later there is almost no more drying going on. At least not enuf to cause bubbles.

I'm not sure about outgassing causing bubbles in laminated prints as I've never witnessed it. However, ink does continue to dry after an hour. I've seen full-bleed contour cuts completely curl up around the edges due to being cut too soon after printing. The same print/cut job behaves perfectly when the print is allowed to dry for 24-48 hours. I attribute this to the ink's outgassing softening the vinyl and adhesive.

 

[pixel_pusher]

The trimming caused the problem. I don't know how but using a trimming blade along the edge always causes that efect.

Is there any way around this? I guess the blade distorts the PVC sheet instead of making a clean cut, and that distortion caused the 1/16" to peel? Would an edge sealing pen fix this problem?

 

[StopSignGraphics]

Are you sure the laminate and the media is compatible. I've seen something similar at the old job when one my guys used the wrong laminate on a project. It looked fine when it left the shop but after a few days the laminate started to bubble and curl.

~Chris

 

[Gino]

Call it what you want, but I don’t think it’s outgassing, either.

All the driers have to migrate to the surface of any material and evaporate with air movement. Dry air helps promote this faster, but any air movement will do this. The minute amount of oils and solvents coming to the surface and then being laminated are going to basically stop drying and full curing abilities. However, it is not strong enough to pull vinyl back [peeling] and cause bubbles. That’s in your head because the manufacturers’ planted it there and are brainwashing everyone into thinking its some failure other than their concoction of chemicals.

Anytime you take a chemical composition such as vinyl and add more solvent chemicals to it… you’re creating a new media along with surface tension. When these chemicals are printed onto your vinyl, they create a thinner-tighter connection which is always pulling in all directions. Why do you think they tell you to leave a 1/4” or so border ?? With no ink there to change the composition… you still have the original stay power of the vinyl.

Apply these chemicals [inks] to the vinyl and wait 1 hour, two hours, 24 hours or 48 hours….. there is still more pull then normal. As soon as you cut it with a knife or blade…. The pull power is now coming from a new point… which by the way is not the vinyl’s original state and will give after a while.

Here’s an experiment for you. Take a piece of wood… a 2” x 4”, a 4’ x 8’ panel or any long flat piece of wood. Paint one side only. Wait a day and give it another coat. In no time at all… that piece of wood is going to start bowing because the pulling power of the paint on one side of the wood is stronger than the wood itself. Well, the vinyl is doing the same. The added ink from your printer has just changed the molecular structure and it is shrinking at a much more severe rate than originally designed for in this instance.

So folks…. in my opinion, we’re creating a surface that no one had contemplated happening, but much like ‘A V E R Y ‘s old answer that it’s ‘APPLICATION FAILURE’ indicating we’re doing something wrong… I’d sooner think that none of the manufacturers have developed a product that won’t shrink without excessiveness when ink as added to it, therefore making us out to be the villain once again.

 

[Techman]

Is there any way around this?

When absolutely necessary,,

I wrap the lam around to the back.