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CNC Lasers, Routers, Plasma cutters

rjssigns

Active Member
Not sure if this is the correct forum to ask this, but has anyone had experience with any of the Chinese lasers, routers, etc..? The reason I ask is I am looking at the 'open source" stuff and by the time you get done dinking around with everything and building/de-bugging you could own an "offshore" piece.
Just looking for input from your experience. No "I think" or "I feel" responses. I deal in relevant fact based information to make decisions.

And I know all about the buy USA deal, but that is another can of worms altogether.

Bottom line: If need be I will build my own units.

PM me if you would like. It is sometimes easier to communicate that way.
 

CanuckSigns

Active Member
We have a Trotec laser (made in Austria) and the service guy from the company told us about a local architect that bought a chinese laser off ebay to cut out foam board for making 3D models of his buildings.

The machine comes with a 10 Gallon bucket that you are meant to fill with water and put a submersible pump inside to act as your laser chiller! the laser tube that shipped with the unit was broken on delivery, the replacement tube was faulty and on the third attempt they got a tube that put out about half the stated power, he kept it because of the headache of getting a replacement.

I guess he sent a job to the machine and nature called, so he left to do his business, when he came back his office was engulfed in flames, he ended up burning his entire building down.

The problem was found to be caused by the electrical connections in the machine, the wires were twisted together and held in place with hot glue!! so when the wiring got warm, the glue melted and the machine caught on fire.

Now I'm sure there are decent chinese made machines, but I would be very wary of buying a bottom of the barrel chinese made machine.
 

rjssigns

Active Member
WOWZER!!!!!!!!:omg: Thank you for the heads up.
I wonder how the motion control end of it is, stepper motors, rails, controller? If that was solid one could ditch the laser tube and put in a good one.
I am looking at the MakerSlide products for the linear axes along with their other products. Even though I would have to build it at least it would be done right. Although I am a concerned with some of the controller programming it would be doable.
 

Salmoneye

New Member
Some of the chinese companies seem to be putting out hundreds and hundreds or routers, there must be lots of feedback for these units. Write the manufacturer and ask for the numbers of some American folks that have purchased the units so you can talk to them. I bought a chinese laminator against the advice of everyone except for those that actually owned one. Long story short it is one of the best pieces of equipment I own and I do not like junk. I will be curious to follow this thread as I have been interested in one as well.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Some of the chinese companies seem to be putting out hundreds and hundreds or routers, there must be lots of feedback for these units. Write the manufacturer and ask for the numbers of some American folks that have purchased the units so you can talk to them. I bought a chinese laminator against the advice of everyone except for those that actually owned one. Long story short it is one of the best pieces of equipment I own and I do not like junk. I will be curious to follow this thread as I have been interested in one as well.

You know, it's like anything else out there. They make top of the line stuff and they make bottom of the barrel stuff. Hell, even Apple's stuff is assembled in China.

I bought a GX-24 (Roland) that people (even a few on here) equate those as being like the Chinese crap cutters. I have yet to have any issue with it at all. It's the right size for apparel decorating (which is most of what I do, although embroidery is by far the biggest part of it).

Biggest thing (on any piece of equipment) is to do your due diligence from people that have first hand experience.
 

artbot

New Member
i spent the last month digging around for a company in china to build me a custom printer. in the end you will get a sense of things... there will be about three companies in all of china that take their s$*t seriously. very seriously. the rest are a bit rough shot companies getting their companies going etc.

now after getting used to the whole asian supplier situation (trademanager messenger with alibaba, learning how to type understandable translatable sentences, etc) i am pricing out 2 ball screw positioners for the z-up on my printer.

i'm sure there will be rants about terrible chinese cnc's. but remember if you paid nothing for the cnc, you gave the builder no budget to build with. good parts cost money. get away from the super low cost builders and do a lot of research. worst case scenario is you change out the control box and or add your own laser. the guts of the machine is the thing that is hard to do.
 

Techman

New Member
the mechanics must be strong and accurate.
They slides must be tight and accurate.

There are 3 axis moving around. If each one is off just a hair it all ads up to large errors on the cutting head.

The mechanics must be stiff. If not the head will wobble around causing errors.
 

Techman

New Member
the mechanics must be strong and accurate.
They slides must be tight and accurate.

There are 3 axis moving around. If each one is off just a hair it all ads up to large errors on the cutting head.

The mechanics must be stiff. If not the head will wobble around causing errors.
 

artbot

New Member
i think the accuracy depends on what you are making. i have the worst, oldest, ugliest, slowest shopbot ever (made of 2x10's, was the first dual head PR made) it's probably 25 years or older. but i make top quality signs with it.

also there have been countless motor, control, linear slide upgrades that i've passed on. that ugly thing could be very suped' up. but there's just no point to it for knocking out a part once in a while. i'm cutting a 35x82 .060 aluminum etched panel with it tomorrow (sysco logo).
 

Techman

New Member
i think the accuracy depends on what you are making. i have the worst, oldest, ugliest, slowest shopbot ever (made of 2x10's, was the first dual head PR made) it's probably 25 years or older. but i make top quality signs with it

Yes you can. One of a kind.
But to make laser cut items as mentioned above it will not work.
 

jrsc

New Member
I own an epilog. Works great. Last time I was at a conference for epilog owners the question of competition from Chinese lasers came up. US laser manufactures are starting to feel the competition from these lasers and are producing more affordable lasers to compete. I think they have some as low as $8000 now. Someone there had done some testing on them. Some are just junk but others work ok at some things. For basic vector cutting they seemed to work ok but they were awful at raster engraving. The other big downfall to them is non of the software was translated very well from chinese, there's not much for instructions and what there is isn't translated well, and there no support. they also have a completely different type of laser tube. I think it is glass and that is part of what makes it cheap.
 

artbot

New Member
it all comes down to doing the homework. the custom printer that i am ordering, i asked ahead of time for a manual for the most common comparable printer. i was astonished at how intuitive and well laid out this manual was. full of color photos and details....very well written english translation. i wish my mimaki manual was that well translated. to day on my jv3, i fussed with a simple x motor calibration for hours and finally gave up and just adjusted the heed to 97.2% because the translation was unintelligible.
 
W

www.esigns.com

Guest
I have limited experience with lasers and would not offer anyone advice in that regard.

With that said I have extensive experience building, maintaining, repairing/servicing, training CNC router operators. To put it bluntly it is not 'complicated technology' IF you are mechanically inclined.

If you are not mechanically inclined buy a reputable machine, from a reputable dealer and be prepared for a learning curve that is quite different from anything you have encountered...I have heard it a THOUSAND times, I made the transition from cutting vinyl to digital printing (arguments and comparisons similar to that) They are COMPLETELY different beasts and require a completely different manner of thinking, you are working (and designing in 3 dimension).

If you are mechanically inclined AND have the time, anyone with a good set of plans and patience can build a quality cnc router that will produce and hold tolerances that will compete with the big boy toys. It is simply a matter of sourcing quality parts (which are readily available from a multitude of sources...another discussion for another time when we have more information about goals, performance expectations, etc) working from a set of plans or developing your own plans that meet your needs and machining some parts or having them fabricated and taking the time to properly construct the machine.

what size table do you envision constructing?

what type of production do you envision, scope of work, quantity, speeds, budget, etc?

I encourage anyone who is interested in building their own cnc router to first take the time and build a small one, you will learn a tremendous amount on the journey that will help you tremendously in constructing a large production machine. Further even if you decide after building a smaller machine (I find a 22" X 26" machine or somewhere in that area depending on your goals to be a good first 'excercise) Even if you just construct the small machine and decide that it is more labor intensive than you envisioned, takes more time than anticipated (usually the case), whatever...you will learn more than I can put into words about cnc technology, how it functions, how to service your equipment, the list is endless...that will put you miles ahead in my opinion should you then decide to buy a complete operating machine versus building your own, or make the decision to build a large, production capable machine.

obviously the costs are much less to build a smaller machine than a larger, it is all around simpler in my opinion than undertaking a do it yourself CNC router build that will accomodate 4X8 sheets or larger. I can not tell you how many people I have encountered who have skipped this advice and gone direct to building a full size machine and have them sitting in various stages of construction, sitting unoperational, with little to no chance of completion....ever.

I can not stress that enough, if it is your first build in my opinion everyone should start small. It can be built on a budget anyone can afford, in your spare time, versus a much larger investment of resources (time, money, space, etc).

As an alternative you can buy a variety of 'hobby' machines on ebay or the various cnc forums that you can 'simply' assemble the parts provided or buy a small 'hobby' machine that is operational and reverse engineer it , take it apart put it back together. I would recommend fabricating your own.

a couple resources if you have not found them already.

http://machmotion.com/cnc-products/...CNC software&gclid=CI3V4oKMs60CFYPc4AodSjynlg

http://buildyourcnc.com/default.aspx

http://www.mechmate.com/

there are multiple members of this forum who have built their own cnc routers, Techman is a great source of info in this regard, 3dsignco, cfbeagle are teh ones that come to mind off the top of my head.

please provide a little more information and I am certain with the knowledge pool that exists on this site we could fabricate an airplane...wait someone here already did...what a Maniac ;)
 

Ianf

New Member
Hi we have a chinese laser and it does work for us. Due diligence is called for when buying. We where sold a 400 x 600mm but actual cutting area is 325 x 525 mm due to a crappy design. Here is a thread from another forum discussing the chinese lasers. [Mods please remove the link if not allowed]. We could not afford a trotec. From what i gather if you do a lot of engraving then Trotec is a lot faster than the Chinese machines.
The question is would I buy another one the answer is yes as we mainly cut paper cupcake wrappers and started cutting a lot of MDF. The real money is in acrylic.
 

rjssigns

Active Member
eSigns you are correct. I most likely will build my own rig with products from MakerSlide. I have no need for monster equipment, 4'x4' max. usable area is sufficient. The first thing will probably be a plasma table as I can do a manual Z. The next would either be a laser or router. Then step up to a 3 axis bed mill.
The other bug is cost. My units will have to use "steppers" as servos are astronomical even though they are much better for control. A single 7in.lb servo is $1200 !!!!! I can buy a complete 3 axis stepper drive package for that. And trying to find used equipment is impossible.

If you or anyone else knows where there is equipment I can cannibalize let me know. Cost is the key.
 

artbot

New Member
cannibalizing is the only way to go. i picked up a 7'x24' air up/down laser table for $2900. missing motors but the guts are there. i just found this brand new unit on craigslist. all you'd have to do is stretch the y out.

http://redding.craigslist.org/tls/2767256072.html

and

http://www.reachoo.com/ads/26280579#modesto-CNC%20Router%204%27x4%27%20NEW!%20-%20possible%20trade%20for%20metal%20lathe%20%28Newman,%20CA%29%20$3000

there are some sweet deals out there.
 

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www.esigns.com

Guest
I can not stress the value and importance in my opinion to you and anyone else considering building your own cnc router project to do a first build much smaller than 4'X4' I apologize for sounding like a broken record but I feel very strongly about this from seeing too many failed projects. I have NEVER had a problem selling any cnc router that I built for more than it cost me in parts (I would be disingenuous if I told you that I made a true 'profit' when factoring in my time) however, it is entirely realistic to expect and recoup the amount you invest in components so that you can reinvest in your 2nd / larger build.

In my experience though, if you build your small one correctly you will find that you will not want to part with it.

It is a mistake in my opinion to build your first machine at the size you are considering (4' X 4')...Not saying that it is impossible, just not the route I would recommend for a first build UNLESS you have someone that has been through the process a few times and is available and willing to assist you ON SITE not via email, etc. Just my opinion for what it is worth.

I would also encourage you to make a post on signs101 stating what you are looking for in regards to parts, old machinery to canabalize, etc.

here are more links I should have included in my earlier post:

http://www.cncroutersource.com/cnc-drive.html
I would call the above site a 'work in progress' which can be frustrating but good, clear beginner information.

http://www.cnczone.com/
simply a wealth of information

If the majority of the work you intend to do is metal obviously a plasma system is a solution, however, I would not recommend going this direction if the primary reason is cost reduction because you can manually control the 'Z' axis, this is an error in my opinion.

Build the machine that you need for the work that you do. If you are primarily a metalworking shop then disregard my prior comment , I am not familiar with the scope of work you produce.

An alternate way of obtaining parts is to contact an cnc service tech. They have a variety of odds and ends that can be used to build a 'frankenstein' machine for lack of another term... if budget is a major issue and you have the time to do the hunting this is an option and that relationship will be invaluable when constructing your machine and having someone to consult regarding the troubleshooting issues that will arise.

Do not limit yourself to the sign industry when looking for cnc parts, etc., as an industry we are a minor user of the technology.

For example I don't know of a cabinet shop that does not have at least one cnc router (Im sure they exist but I don't know of one) & the majority of them that I worked with when selling/servicing equip had multiple generations of machines if they have been in business for any length of time, all the way back to machines requiring manual entry of g-code.

Many of those machines were built to be true work horses with long service lifes but brands that for the most part are not recognized in the sign trade, such as Thermwood.

If you can find a dead, abandoned, or simply no longer used old machine (and they are out there if you have the time to search) you can scavenge high end parts...everything from the electronics ... to the table, there is a multitude of parts that can be reused and repurposed to meet your needs for a smaller machine.

I can not stress this enough! When you get to the point of planning the build of your 'real machine' not the 1st machine that I recommend, that you build a machine that does what you NEED it to do not what you can afford.

Save money, accumulate parts until you can build the machine that meets your needs versus sacrificing things such as size, or 3rd axis as you mentioned (which is absolutely necessary imo and not something that should be eliminated because of costs).

I do not know your ultimate goals but deciding what to build based on what you can afford in regards to a cnc router will be a decision that you will regret very soon after familiarizing yourself with the technology and it's capabilities (I understand financial "reality" but to choose the size of machine, basic capabilities soley on budget is going to frustrate you beyond belief with this type of equipment) just my opinion of course...

Build what you need to do the type of work you sell and "ideally"build your production machine large enough to accomodate the largest substrate you are going to regularly use (not just the table size but also the depth of the Y axis gantry).

Sacrificing 'luxuries' such as a tool changer (which is not a necessity in my opinion for 99% of router operators) is one thing, limiting yourself to a manual 3rd axis is a design/build decision that if you make you will regret quickly based on my experience, I hope that this does not come across as rude, that is not my intent, but this is a design decision that would be erroneous in my opinion.

Again to ANYONE considering undertaking the construction of a cnc router, it is entirely doable but PLEASE if you have no experience build a small machine first... something that will allow to route 12"x12" plaques or an 18"X24" sign to familiarize yourself with the technology and allow you to earn the experience necessary to build a quality machine that meets your greater goals without investing larger amounts of $ only to possibly discover that the project requires skillsets that you do not possess or do not wish to invest the amount of time required to learn (anyone can learn the skills necessary to build a cnc router, even if they have zero experience, however, most are not willing to invest the time to learn the various skillsets needed to accomplish the project).

This will allow you to 'test the waters' without investing the amount of time and money that is required to build a larger machine, I have simply seen too MANY people discover that it takes more time than they projected or than they are capable of investing or can justify to properly construct a large, production quality machine that is capable of acceptable, professional tolerances.

You will be able to identify all of the common pitfalls by building a small machine, which will save you much more time, money and troubleshooting, on your main build and ultimately allow you to build a higher quality machine.

I have simply seen too many people buy all the components intending to build a 4x8 machine and find it requires more time, money, and skills than they posess or are willing to invest and are left with a very expensive table to weed vinyl on or assemble signs on when they could have saved themselves thousands of dollars AND countless hours and most importantly they most likely could have completed their large build if they had gone through the process of a small builld first to gain the understanding of the system, components, etc. sorry to sound like a broken record I have just seen this play out TOO many times and know what it requires to properly build a quality machine and the vast majority of people who make the decision underestimate what it is going to take to have a successful ultimate outcome.

dan@esigns.com
 
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