Conflicting Advice to Newbies

[GAC05]

Where has Addy gone to?!

Just a guess - I think he went to Africa to visit Fatboy but did not listen to the "don't run" advice and ended up as an exclamation point in Gino's name there
:Oops:

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Gino]

Since we're talking about my post I'll toss in my clarification I posted in the other thread - I'm strictly looking at it from a perspective of brokering advertising, not signs. To add to the conversation here, if I wanted to actually be in the sign business, I would absolutely spend the time (or try to, as the OP mentions) being an apprentice. There seems to be a fantastic amount of skill that goes into the process. That's why I'm not up here posting that I want to try slapping up transit vinyl because it looks easy. I am absolutely paying pros to do it. Why? Because of the huge learning curve. Not even something I would consider.

Okay emoe..... I don't understand why you're still here.

You want to own a business, but know nothing of the process[es].

I want to own a pancake house, but don't know how to cook, make batter, flip flap-jacks, what equipment to buy, what ingredients to buy, use the cash register, get permits to work legally, how to solicit business, where to get any of the above mentioned items, let alone do a single thing in my business. Does this make any sense ??

Well, that's what you're trying to do. Come in the back door because you probably have a few leads and you want a piece of the action without having to lift a finger. I'm not gonna resort to name calling or bad mouthing you, just how or why do you consider yourself eligible to come into this industry ??

Your intention in order to make things work are to take business away from someone or several someone's. You have no idea of what you're doing or why you're doing anything, but you evidently think you can sell something you know nothing about. How does that happen and why should anyone want to help you ??

You show NO interest in anything except making a buck. Well, we all want to make a buck, whether we have employees helping us or doing it on our own, but we're not whoring people out like a pimp. Remember, a pimp can't do what his ho's do... can he ??

I'm eager to hear how or why we should help someone do nothing except turn a buck. Really... I am. Perhaps I can do it, but I would appreciate your explanation first.

 

[royster13]

I am a "wing it" kind of guy....No matter what "good" advice I read here, if I decide to do something different sign related, it will likely be without the benefit of learning somewhere else and under someone else....

These days there is so much information out there....One does not have to ask too many "dumb" questions on a forum like this, because 99% of them have already been asked and answer in the past....One just has to take the time to read through the archives....

 

[Stuckup]

It is all up to you. After a really bad day with really bad news and its nothing to do with work, I will be Blunt.I say GO FOR IT ON your own but not Alone. Show you are loyal, to those that supply you, and they will fully support you, and dont be afraid to ask questions, try, experiment. You have the benefit of many years of posts online to search through, and Suppliers who can help you. You don't have to learn on your own. Modern Signage is not difficult, but miss 1 step in the process and job may fail. FFS, you angry detractors just help the newbies, they just like us, trying to get ahead and willing to try. There is NOTHING more valuable than a group of people working together. The more people in the Industry you work with the better off you are. You may get used a few times, but mainly you get rewarded. Have you ever been given a car when yours died, have you had contractors try to work for free, when you get crappy clients and complain about slow payers or people not paying,do you have workers or clients try to give you money. I have had that, WHY? Because I did something stupid, I gave help on what I thought I knew. That's all. IF YOU HAVE TO PROTECT YOUR SKILLS FROM OTHERS, only means you are not as good as you wish you were.

 

[SD&F]

I think if you really want to learn this business, it takes years. It takes many hours not just learning how to do things, but understanding how to get better at what you are doing. If you go in an apply with the intent of learning everything quickly, then you will not really be anyones competition. I watch businesses open and close, because they think they have a better way. Experience....whether learned or earned is the only way to make anything work.

 

[Stuckup]

I think if you really want to learn this business, it takes years. It takes many hours not just learning how to do things, but understanding how to get better at what you are doing. If you go in an apply with the intent of learning everything quickly, then you will not really be anyones competition. I watch businesses open and close, because they think they have a better way. Experience....whether learned or earned is the only way to make anything work.

I AGREE< but when someone comes along that is starting out, give them a go, if they try use you , then blow them away. Your main statement I see is, THEY THINK THEY know already. All I know is we dont know it all, and we just are a bunch of peeps using diff methods to JUST get bye. Every new Material brings new Install parameters.

 

[JR-Folientechnik]

I have trained many sign makers over the years, it is a risky business, because it's a 50% change, he will try to cut your prices later, and go into business for himself. My solution was, we made a written legal agreement, that he or she in the case of leaving my business could not make direct offers to any of my customers at the time of departure...24 month period. If so, they could be liable to damages incurred. Most of the people I trained got a part of my territory (West Germany... and we all survive, because our prices are competitive on both sides of the line. Competitors in the market place are a good thing! You just have to be better than they are!

 

[Stuckup]

I have trained many sign makers over the years, it is a risky business, because it's a 50% change, he will try to cut your prices later, and go into business for himself. My solution was, we made a written legal agreement, that he or she in the case of leaving my business could not make direct offers to any of my customers at the time of departure...24 month period. If so, they could be liable to damages incurred. Most of the people I trained got a part of my territory (West Germany... and we all survive, because our prices are competitive on both sides of the line. Competitors in the market place are a good thing! You just have to be better than they are!

My prices vary according to client or job. Any newbie who tries to undercut is just pro longing their business death. I had a contract 6 yrs ago, now they are trying to get new suppliers at $1500 a van wrap, all inclusive with a warranty, nah, I had it at $4000 , the only way they got to looking at $1500 a van was that people didnt value the cost of doing a job.tried to beat others price to do job. Ex workers try to grab clients all the time, let them I say, Since then I have seen 4 pple go Bankrupt from that client.

 

[Gino]

Hey Stuckup........

Right now, where I'm at it is 11:30 am Thursday morning. What time is it where you're at ??

 

[Fatboy]

That is some great perspective.
Please know that my OP wasn't trying to discourage people from giving the advice of learning somewhere else, but more of a question to people with employees if this seems productive to the big picture of your business. I guess if I were to disect it even further than giving advice to people via sites like this would also be counter-productive in a the even bigger picture, but as some of you have said, paying it forward to what you have recieved from other mentors, teachers etc is the least you can do.
I know that the only reason I could possibly have done this on my own is with modern technology like youtube, signs 101, online tutorials and a lot of personal discipline and patience. The first three though are mostly people helpng out selflessly giving their time and experise to help others. I guess with hiring someone who may be your future competition, you are also getting a service of labour in return for your efforts instead of just a warm fuzzy feeling of helping people over the web.
I think I get it now.
And as always, a big thank you to all who have helped me directly and indirectly (by reading countless posts to others) over the first year of my business.

 

[Stuckup]

Hey Stuckup........

Right now, where I'm at it is 11:30 am Thursday morning. What time is it where you're at ??

1.37am, stoked up on Caffeine, got stay awake to make money lol, just takes a while to wind down after work Unfortunately.

 

[Stuckup]

I have been in the sign business for 35 years now, I am one of those who has never desired to own my own sign shop (although I have been toying with the idea as of late), but starting up in this economy scares me, probably one reason why I am still an employee. I did manage a sign shop 10 years, and I learned one thing, I did not like myself as a manager.

My belief, there is nothing like having employees with experience, I know we demand more pay, but I believe if you weigh the cost against the benefits of experience you will find it is most advantageous for the employer. The larger problem is dealing with personalities and whether you get along with one another, and of course a good work ethic, which seems to be less important to younger people these days.

Of course if the employer has less experience than their employee, then you might have to put your ego aside, but at the same time make sure the employee knows you are the boss.

The employer takes the risks, deserves the profit, the skilled employee deserves GOOD money if they make the boss profit, thats about all it is.

 

[Arlo Kalon 2.0]

During the 35 years or so I was self employed in the sign business I frequently hired experienced sign painters (before computers) to subcontract work for me. My existing business - with an overhead - would contract the job, take 20% off the top to cover OH and materials, and split the balance 50/50. It was a great arrangement that kept work going out of my shop and actually made it harder for the guys I hired to start their own shop - they were too busy making money with me. I was always open to training someone, knowing they would eventually go out on their own. It was how I did it... after I married my wife in 1979 and moved to the college town where she had 2 years remaining on her degree, I eventually worked for all five established shops in that town. My reputation for not sticking around long was no impediment to me getting hired - there was plenty of work for everyone. That isn't the case anymore with the advent of computerization. Not only have the available pieces of the pie shrunk, they bring in much less money than they used to. If I were still in business, I would be reluctant to train anyone now. I would, however, make an exception for an outstanding candidate. I think that's how you would have to package yourself to get hired nowadays. The issue as to your plans of learning and moving on would be an expected outcome, but an outstanding candidate would present the potential to make me money in the meantime. I feel a non-compete contract would be a futile endeavor. I don't believe any shop ultimately "owns" any particular customer. I would consider someone I had employed and trained to be a lowlife if they went out and promptly began soliciting my customers... but in all honesty, that's how I started. I had a wife to put through two more years of college. So maybe I was a lowlife, but the funny thing is I remained friends with all my former employers and would often subcontract for them when work was slow. There are many ways to view this, but ultimately you have to take the path that leads to your success - or else what's the point of even trying to be in this business?

 

[Stuckup]

During the 35 years or so I was self employed in the sign business I frequently hired experienced sign painters (before computers) to subcontract work for me. My existing business - with an overhead - would contract the job, take 20% off the top to cover OH and materials, and split the balance 50/50. It was a great arrangement that kept work going out of my shop and actually made it harder for the guys I hired to start their own shop - they were too busy making money with me. I was always open to training someone, knowing they would eventually go out on their own. It was how I did it... after I married my wife in 1979 and moved to the college town where she had 2 years remaining on her degree, I eventually worked for all five established shops in that town. My reputation for not sticking around long was no impediment to me getting hired - there was plenty of work for everyone. That isn't the case anymore with the advent of computerization. Not only have the available pieces of the pie shrunk, they bring in much less money than they used to. If I were still in business, I would be reluctant to train anyone now. I would, however, make an exception for an outstanding candidate. I think that's how you would have to package yourself to get hired nowadays. The issue as to your plans of learning and moving on would be an expected outcome, but an outstanding candidate would present the potential to make me money in the meantime. I feel a non-compete contract would be a futile endeavor. I don't believe any shop ultimately "owns" any particular customer. I would consider someone I had employed and trained to be a lowlife if they went out and promptly began soliciting my customers... but in all honesty, that's how I started. I had a wife to put through two more years of college. So maybe I was a lowlife, but the funny thing is I remained friends with all my former employers and would often subcontract for them when work was slow. There are many ways to view this, but ultimately you have to take the path that leads to your success - or else what's the point of even trying to be in this business?

What he Said, we employ people to MAKE US money, if they do a good Job and we do ours well, they deserve top dollar. Takes both for all to make money. The more they make the more we make. I send people to jobs, they get some customers offer them work direct at times. Sometimes I say go for it, mostly its NO, as who wants a disloyal client, one who cheats. Different if the client say times are hard, If I am away my contractors are allowed to quote direct and charge my clients, its all about best service for my client. Too cheap, and they get too busy and cant fulfil contracts, lose Money and go broke all the while bringing prices under lower. Look after the ex Bosses and ex employees and they send you the big jobs, they help you back. Loyalty matters.

 

[Stuckup]

under = even lol, did I say I was dyslexic, good form for a Signie.

 

[mark galoob]

ahh, the newbie syndrom...yup, as a newbie on this forum your dammed if you do and dammed if you dont...the internet bullies here just love to pick on the newbies dont they? on the other hand there are also just as great people here who always offer advise and help.

so to answer the op i am in a unique situation in that i have 2 different businesses in my shop. i have a pack and ship store in the front, and a print shop in the back. i dont do electrical signs or anything that requires more than a 10' ladder. im NOT in the pack and ship business...im NOT in the printing business, im in the MONEY making business, and those businesses together seem to make me a bit of money so for now it works. i have learned from the school of blood sweat and tears and more grey hairs than i can count. i learn from this forum, by calling friends in the business, and i have even paid sign pros to mentor me in my store and teach me the trade.

point is, if you step into this kind of business yourself without any training its going to cost you money...prob a lot of money. i did not apprentice with anybody but if i would have, it would have saved me many grey hairs, and several thousand dollars and prob a few extra years on my life.

i would not hire anybody that has too much experience. i value good employees and for the area, i pay more than average, and for the most part dont micromanage them to death, and good ones will stay with me for years...but this a money relationship, and any employee worth there salt is gonna go where there is more money...i know i would...so i know if i hire an experienced person, they are gonna bug out as soon as something better comes along, and usually thats sooner rather than later.

mark galoob

 

[otctech]

When it comes to hiring somebody its the same as anything else... you get what you pay for.

The problem isn't the good employee has no loyalty and leaves, its the fact that he/she is not getting paid enough to stay.

 

[Al Checca]

I would hire someone that has a lot of experience over someone that has none.

For sure, If things are good, then you shouldn't have time to teach the fundamentals to a rookie....

 

[Al Checca]

Since we're talking about my post I'll toss in my clarification I posted in the other thread - I'm strictly looking at it from a perspective of brokering advertising, not signs. To add to the conversation here, if I wanted to actually be in the sign business, I would absolutely spend the time (or try to, as the OP mentions) being an apprentice. There seems to be a fantastic amount of skill that goes into the process. That's why I'm not up here posting that I want to try slapping up transit vinyl because it looks easy. I am absolutely paying pros to do it. Why? Because of the huge learning curve. Not even something I would consider.

One small thing I think that can "help" you and hasn't been mention is read all these old posts, sit down spend months or what ever time you can spare. More than likely the topic has been posted might be a page of the same topics.

While you sure need a practical hands on portion you can learn so much from a forum like this... These aren't rookies here, they been there done that...
I like to spend my time wisely so somethings I'd post here or ask someone who knows first...

I was in the Sign biz kinda before the nets but I read everything I could get my hands on to educate and understand... And still do. :signs101:

 

[ICeMAnAbk]

Well, when I first started, I was under an experienced sign guy's wing for a few years before I was left to fend for myself. I use to screw around on the computer making graphics as a kid in adobe, or paint, or whatever. I got really good and fast at it, to the point I'd know what adobe was capable of, and knew where everything was to get the desired effect I was looking for. Experienced people in adobe know... yea, it's more then plug ins and filters at times playing guess and check.

I didn't know jack about signs. Heck, I was horrible that first month. I remember that guy getting so agrivated. However, I stuck with it, and he stuck with me, and together, I got good at it. Once I mastered vinyl and would run outside with a 2ft x 8ft dry piece and slap it on stuff without a bubble, dry, I ventured into silk screening, then into file preps for other stuff like digital and stationary paperwork. I had my days of "oh... so thats why latex and oil can't be put together". or "Why won't my vinyl stick to this??" or even issues with the opacity of inks and other media.

Simply put, from my experience, I'd like to show someone the trade, and keep in mind, this is still a business of individuals, even though we have larger sign shops out there, majority are, still one man or a few vs the many, and I can gladly say the sign guys I was in competition with, that were twice my age, were still helpful twards me. In the end, we're all trying to make a paycheck and have fun while doing it. Granted, not everyone wants to be the boss, it's a lot of responsibility, and there is the unknown zone of will I be paid this week? Some like the stability of a constant paycheck. However, if they want to venture on their own later, take in that it'll take time to perfect just the trade, throw in the management side, experience... There is a time where you will get out of the designers chair, or away from the weeding table, or off the crane, we get old, even the best. Need a replacement(s), and with them taking over, and you moving into management/mentor, you can expand what you do.

There is also hiring multiple people. Can't do it all if you only do part of the job... example, a weeder.... an install guy, a designer, etc.