Declining jobs based on moral/ethical grounds

[Stacey K]

Hey, common? Nobody said you have no issue with rape. Without knowing you I’d put money on the chance that you would come to the defence of someone being raped. I certainly didn’t imply anything along those lines. But you’re not responding to the main issue or you’re completely missing the point being made. And of course rape is always going to come up, because the laws don’t make allowances for these cases. You yourself said you would like to print all the Closed signs. Where does that leave a woman or girl who’s gone through that trauma?
But let’s leave rape aside, I know it’s a difficult one to defend in this context on your side (I mean that respectfully)
What about a pair of young kids? Sometimes things just happen - they don’t need to be from broken families or have any kind of underlying issues. Just kids who got themselves into a situation they could never understand. Girl is way to young to have a child. What then?
Or the other one “your side” seems to sidestep often - medical conditions with the pregnancy. I don’t know if you’re married, but what would you do if a month or two in the doctors advise of a sure risk of preeclampsia or worse. Would you knowingly let your wife face death, knowing that you could rather abort now and try again when she’s ready.
Or the case of a fetus showing clear signs of severe medical issues early on?
All of these are real situations, but I struggle to understand why it needs to be even debated - a woman’s body is hers and hers alone. Men struggle to understand the issue here, nobody is forcing us to do anything our bodies.
Texas_Signmaker, I really, genuinely don’t want to have a fight about this. A civil urgument or debate is cool by me, but I know these discussions turn ugly where religion is at the crux of the matter.
So maybe we just drop the topic and concentrate on the readon we’re all here - I’m sure on that front we’ll have more than enough to be friendly about.

I can't speak for everyone but I think "most" people against abortion have the biggest issue with the abortions that are done after 12 weeks. "Most" don't have an issue with abortions due to rape or medical issues either.

With that being said...now you have this other area you speak about...the young kids and people that "make mistakes". I become conflicted when I think about the people who don't have nice families like me. My parents would be mad but would NEVER disown me, beat me, kill me, or perform a coat hanger abortion in the closet. I can't say that for everyone - those are the girls and women I worry about. There are some very, very bad parents out there and some very bad families.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

a woman’s body is hers and hers alone. Men struggle to understand the issue here, nobody is forcing us to do anything our bodies.

That's another thing I don't agree on. IF we accept abortion as legal, why is it 100% the woman's choice to have the baby? If they want to make it fair, the father (who legally is responsible for 50% of that baby) should have and equal amount of say.

It doesn't have to turn ugly as long as everyone is civil.

 

[eggnog316]

So without fighting about this (like somebody here said, this isn’t facebook), I do find your view severely short sighted. Without even removing god from your view, how do you account for girls being raped every single day by family, strangers, or people in authority over them? With keeping god in the argument, you naturally HAVE to allow for evils done on to people by a devil. Allowing that girl to remove an evil acted upon her by satin would be allowing god to do his work - surely? It’s a logical approach for faith based concerns around this topic.
These horific rapes happen here in my country, and every other country in the world. It is horrible, truthful fact.
Would you deny an abortion to a 12 year old girl that was raped repeatedly by her own farther?? Again, this actually happens, your “side’s” argument just seems to always skirt around even this obvious fact.
That’s not even touching on the subject of laws made to govern a woman’s own body, but primarily made by men.
I don’t know you, but I’m willing to put good money on the fact that you do stuff that god doesn’t want you to do.
Again, really really not picking a fight with anyone-I’m just chatting. The topic posed by the poster was bound to raise moral issues with strong feelings.

What's your take on assisted suicide then? If it's my body, my choice, then a person should have the legal right to end their own life.

Why is physician assisted suicide illegal but abortion is ok? using that logic

 

[Bobby H]

That's another thing I don't agree on. IF we accept abortion as legal, why is it 100% the woman's choice to have the baby? If they want to make it fair, the father (who legally is responsible for 50% of that baby) should have and equal amount of say.

With unplanned pregnancies far more often than not it is the biological father pushing for an abortion. Not the mother. The man doesn't want to be saddled with child support payments, among other obligations like suddenly having to be a parent. Many pregnant women have been beaten up and even murdered over the situation.

A lot of implied slut-shaming goes on in discussions about abortion. Certain pro-life activists (typically men) like to say women are using abortion as a means of birth control. I have local friends who spout this BS. That argument could not be more out of touch. They like to think it's such an easy decision for a woman to decide to terminate a pregnancy. The procedure isn't exactly cheap. Access is not easy; clinics that perform abortions aren't exactly on every street corner, even in "blue" states.

Basically my new stance has been "if you don't support abortion, how many kids are you ready to foster for the betterment of society?"

Exactly. Too many "pro life" people are really only pro-fetus. Once the baby is born it turns into a negative drain on taxpayer dollars. Hence all the attacks on government funding/aid for early child health care and day care, not to mention public education in general.

Not that much of this matters. Young adults are having less sex. Pregnancies are going way down. The United States is in the early years of what could be a dramatic "baby bust." Parenthood has turned into an extremely expensive lifestyle choice. More teens and young adults are getting increasingly skilled at avoiding it. Parenthood for so many of them is an instant gateway into poverty. If current birth rate trends in the US continue we'll be suffering serious to severe demographic imbalance in 10-20 years. We'll have too many old people and not nearly enough of a working age tax base to keep the nation afloat.

Not to answer for steve here, but I myself think it's a underappreciated option here in the states. Right to die with dignity, without negative legal effects/terrifying 'procedure' is something all these old farts at the capitol should be thinking about more seriously...

Dying in the United States is big freaking business for our nation's health care system and a number of other related industries. Letting someone die on their own terms in a controlled manner rather than languishing in a costly medical facility goes against that business model.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Did he say he didn't support assisted suicide?
Not to answer for steve here, but I myself think it's a underappreciated option here in the states. Right to die with dignity, without negative legal effects/terrifying 'procedure' is something all these old farts at the capitol should be thinking about more seriously...
Dying with family around on a selected day sounds a good deal nicer than randomly on the shitter when your liver nopes out. But then you'd see who in your family really cares enough to make a trip to be with you when you die. "Well, verbal addendum, f*ck uncle randy, he's an ***, shall be read with my will"

Because, the healthcare providers won't be able to bill your insurance to keep you alive those last remaining sick days.

edit:: just saw Bobby's comment... seems I'm not the only one thinking that.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

If people would mind their own business the world would be a better place.
When it comes to the whole notion of you can't tell me what to do, people are very hypocritical.

 

[GAC05]

I think if it was legal then industry would absolutely find a way to make money out of it, and insurance would be right there. Make no mistake, assisted suicide is a hard one because there are so many legal and family moving parts.

Plus with a moderate success rate, there would be few repeat customers and almost zero callbacks.

 

[Bobby H]

Dying in the United States is big freaking business for our nation's health care system and a number of other related industries. Letting someone die on their own terms in a controlled manner rather than languishing in a costly medical facility goes against that business model.

While this is very true, I'll say that a great number of religious groups would dethrone any representative of theirs drafting legislation for it. Kindly a scenario the lobbyists can look at and not even bother touching unless they see it move.

Too many religious leaders in the US are failing miserably at being the shepherd to people in need of help. Instead there is too much of this fire and brimstone judgment belching out, along with way too much politics from the pulpit. It's no wonder so many Americans are turned off by the idea of going to church.

We've had over 100,000 Americans die of drug overdoses in the past year. Some of these "religious leaders" might be whispering to themselves, "good riddance." Car accident related deaths are way up, despite all the covid-related lock-downs that should have reduced traffic and accidents. So many of us don't have our heads straight these days or are just plain road-raging. The homicide rate has been rising. It's not nearly as bad as it was in the early 1990's or all time highs set in 1980. But it's lot worse than historic lows set just a few years ago. Murder gets the news headlines. But suicide kills roughly three times as many people.

I've lost friends to suicide. One of my good friends in high school hanged himself in the woods. It hurts bad when anyone you care about dies, even if you know the end is coming. But if they die of a disease or get killed in an accident you can make sense of it. Losing a friend or family member to suicide is something else. The grief you suffer from that is twisted. It's pointless to even try understanding it. All I can figure is that if someone is in enough pain they're not going to give two S#!ts about what some televangelist says about the matter. At some point the pain just becomes too overwhelming and the only thing they want is for it to stop.

There is a great deal of money-grubbing scamming going on with end of life care. A family member is terminally ill, but not checking out really fast and easy. So they get to stay in the hospital and hospice care until the end. Meanwhile the family has to do this legal circle jerk trying to transfer ownership of whatever assets the dying relative has before the hospital and various other parties seize them as a part of doing business. I've been through this a few times before. Even if Medicare and the Military is supposed to be covering expenses the vultures will still make a play.

 

[Johnny Best]

I've lost friends to suicide. One of my good friends in high school hanged himself in the woods. It hurts bad when anyone you care about dies, even if you know the end is coming. But if they die of a disease or get killed in an accident you can make sense of it. Losing a friend or family member to suicide is something else. The grief you suffer from that is twisted. It's pointless to even try understanding it. All I can figure is that if someone is in enough pain they're not going to give two S#!ts about what some televangelist says about the matter. At some point the pain just becomes too overwhelming and the only thing they want is for it to stop.

Suicide is just thinking of your pain and not your close friends or family suffering after your gone. The Spartan way of thinking about the group and not just yourself is the greater good. Believing in a God does not mean going to church or listening to a preacher. Just walking outside and looking at a tree is a spiritual awaking that takes your mind off of your egotistical being. You are only given one body in your lifetime, it's a gift.

 

[Stacey K]

Tuesday night there was a high school basketball game. Two best friends play, they both went home after the game. Soon after arriving home one mother heard on FB scanner there was a shooting and texted her best friend, the mother of her son's best friend. She said, "Did you hear there was a shooting? I wonder what happened?" The other mother replied, "That was my son. He just shot himself."

The mother of the boy who is alive works for my sister and called in extremely distressed and could not work Wednesday, that's how I know what was said. Another young person taken by suicide, it's so sad.

Johnny is right, this boys suicide devastated the family and friends. His best friend will likely never forgive himself for not seeing warning signs, as a teenager that's a lot to handle.

 

[Johnny Best]

The Spartan would also know when his time to carry the flag has ended, and that he has shifted from a contributor to a burden.

Never, always think of the whole, not the feelings of one. Only way home is being carried on your shield.
They were taken from their mother at 12 years old to learn the Spartan way of life.

 

[3Dsigns]

I have refused to do signs for alcohol establishments, off color or morally offensive words etc. I won't even do "peeing Calvins".

 

[Bobby H]

Our shop won't making "peeing Calvin" vinyl graphics because it's cheap, rot gut work not worth the trouble and it's not worth the legal risk either. I'll happily point those customers to the flea markets.

We kind of take things on a case by case basis for projects we'll refuse based on moral grounds. Some things just aren't a good look for a sign company. We won't make signs or graphics for hate groups or anything condoning violence or illegal activity.

Suicide is just thinking of your pain and not your close friends or family suffering after your gone.

The situation is not that simple at all. First, such an explanation is only logical when applied to someone who is thinking rationally. Many people dying by their own hand are suffering severe (and often untreated) mental illness. It's out of touch to apply one's own sane perspective onto someone else. No one truly knows what a suicidal person is thinking or what they feel. They don't have the perspective to make that call. It makes about as much sense as a man claiming he knows how labor pain and child birth feels.

The United States has a pretty disgusting track record of treating mental illness, both in actual government/business policy and our nation's popular culture. We seem to think telling people, "suck it up, Buttercup," is an acceptable solution.

With terminally ill people the situation is very complicated there too. No one wants a relative who is terminally ill to die. At the same time we don't want the terminally ill person suffering and those around that person suffering too.

I lost one of Uncles, my Uncle Jim who was my Dad's 2nd youngest brother, to ALS (aka Lou Gehrig’s disease) a few years ago. ALS is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. It took about 2 years from the time of his diagnosis for Jim to die of that horrible disease. The final few months were pure terrifying hell for both Jim and my Aunt Shari. At first the disease robs a person's mobility. Start with a cane, then a walker and then a wheelchair. As it gets worse basic things like being able to swallow food become impossible. Feeding tubes become necessary. The ability to speak slips away. At the end it becomes an all out battle just to be able to breathe. It's not a clean, neat exit either. There's lots of almost dying episodes. My Aunt Shari was so heartbroken when Jim finally died. They had been together since high school. But she also had this wave of terrible guilt due to feeling relief those years of crisis were done.

If I was diagnosed with ALS I'd very tempted to put a gun to my head. Having to die by becoming totally paralyzed and slowly suffocating to death is pretty terrible. I'm sure not going to cast any judgments against terminally ill people choosing assisted suicide as a way to go out with some sense of control and dignity.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Social media has a lot to do with the rise in depression and the subsequent suicides. It's bad for adults but really bad for kids/teens. The inner workings of them are starting to be exposed now but not enough people are listening, at least not yet.

 

[Stacey K]

Social media has a lot to do with the rise in depression and the subsequent suicides. It's bad for adults but really bad for kids/teens. The inner workings of them are starting to be exposed now but not enough people are listening, at least not yet.

I totally agree. I have FB mostly for my business page but I do scroll through sometimes. I do catch myself becoming a little jealous of others sometimes or wonder I wasn't invited to this or that. Then I stop going on it for a while and I don't know anything which is perfect!

What you don't know won't hurt you.

 

[Johnny Best]

I lost one of Uncles, my Uncle Jim who was my Dad's 2nd youngest brother, to ALS (aka Lou Gehrig’s disease) a few years ago. ALS is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. It took about 2 years from the time of his diagnosis for Jim to die of that horrible disease. The final few months were pure terrifying hell for both Jim and my Aunt Shari. At first the disease robs a person's mobility. Start with a cane, then a walker and then a wheelchair. As it gets worse basic things like being able to swallow food become impossible. Feeding tubes become necessary. The ability to speak slips away. At the end it becomes an all out battle just to be able to breathe. It's not a clean, neat exit either. There's lots of almost dying episodes. My Aunt Shari was so heartbroken when Jim finally died. They had been together since high school. But she also had this wave of terrible guilt due to feeling relief those years of crisis were done.

If I was diagnosed with ALS I'd very tempted to put a gun to my head. Having to die by becoming totally paralyzed and slowly suffocating to death is pretty terrible. I'm sure not going to cast any judgments against terminally ill people choosing assisted suicide as a way to go out with some sense of control and dignity.

I watched my mother pass away with ALS. So Bobby H, if you had ALS you would would not be able to lift a gun to your head, much less load the gun. It shakes you to the core to watch someone with that disease go down a slow road to death. I read to her every day and a book she enjoyed was Dostoevsky's "The Idiot", and we went through Tolstoy's books. Freud also has a study on "Thanatos" which is driven by death-instinct.
Told my sons if I get ALS to take me fishing for Blue Marlin, and when it gets close to the boat to tie the leader to my arm and cut the line. When that Marlin dives it will take me the dark blue depbts of the Ocean for a peacefully end.

 

[Adam Vreeke]

Suicide is just thinking of your pain and not your close friends or family suffering after your gone. The Spartan way of thinking about the group and not just yourself is the greater good. Believing in a God does not mean going to church or listening to a preacher. Just walking outside and looking at a tree is a spiritual awaking that takes your mind off of your egotistical being. You are only given one body in your lifetime, it's a gift.

They also killed babies with deformities and disabilities... Also another interesting fact, if a woman died during child birth she was given a warriors funeral.

As far as the assisted suicide goes, do we not put pets down to end their suffering?

 

[Gino]

They shoot horses, don't they ??

 

[Notarealsignguy]

It should be left up to the individual depending on what their living will says they want. I hope it changes before I get there.

 

[Bobby H]

So Bobby H, if you had ALS you would would not be able to lift a gun to your head, much less load the gun.

Usually when someone is first diagnosed with ALS they're still able to walk, chew gum and do all sorts of other manual things. Pulling a trigger would still be very possible. When my Uncle Jim was diagnosed with ALS he was still able bodied. But then it was a steady decline downhill over a 2 year period.