Discussion How Is It............................

[Gino]

This is not meant towards anyone in particular, but so many people who do things for the sake of doing them, without thinking through what the end results will be money-wise or from a professional standpoint. If one doesn't have the means of doing it, then why offer a poor substitute ??

I see this in so many threads and yet, no one seems to care. Many suggestions are given, but most insist in doing it their way, regardless if there is a better way or solution. It seems if they don't have the means to do it- in-house, they turn a deaf ear to reason.

Just curious how many others notice this same mentality.​

 

[Billct2]

I think it's because a large percentage of the new sign businesses are only looking at it as a way to make money (some actually think "easy" money").
Then there's the percentage of shops that don't care, just want to knock it out and the percentage who haven't got a clue.

 

[Modern Ink Signs]

I look at it this way....

I've been doing this since 1988. This is my PROFESSION. To others it is just a job.

I don't sell anything I would not buy myself (and I'm picky)

I will never begrudge anyone learning how to do something in this business. However, learn first then say you can do it. Work with those that have the knowledge to teach you. For instance I have never really gotten into the electrical side of this business. Nor do I really care to. I have someone that I've been working with since 1988. He will at any time teach me. Obviously I know more today then I did when I started. So I've learned but have on interest in that side.

If you turn out poor work all you do is hurt my industry. In my opinion, you should be proud of every job that leaves your shop.

 

[Johnny Best]

"I have become comfortably numb" to the questions with the threads of starting out and get rich quick idea.

Agree with Modern ink and being proud of your work and Billct2 with just "knocking it out" attitude but it has become the norm lately.

 

[Billct2]

I have a good friend in the propane business. He does multi-million dollar jobs. 1, maybe 2 a year. He is self made, and lives VERY well!
His story is amazing to hear. He started of with a 15 year old truck, a used $1.000 gas powered generator/welding machine, and a $10 an hour helper. He started off installing small backup generators. He now installs propane plants. He said he attributes his success to NEVER turning down a job, whether too big, or small. He always found a way to get it done, and get it done right. He hires seasonal help, on his larger jobs. Still only has his first single $10 an hour employee year round, though he makes more than $10 now, and does a lot less manual labor.

The right person can figure a way to do it, and do it right.

I'll bet he didn't go straight from installing back-up generators to a multi million dollar installation...just about everyone here started out a a solo operator, the difference was most of the "old timers" started out working in the business and learned a thing or two before they went out on their own. Whereas now someone buys a printer or plotter makes up a name and they're a "sign company".

 

[Marlene]

when people ask, they often get info that isn't that great and they get info that is great. unless they know what they are doing, telling the difference is hard. when I do answer a question, I tell the OP how I do it. they benifit from what I've learned, many times the hard way, and can do what they want with the info.

 

[Gino]

In this thread, I'm trying not to be divisive as to old and new people in the industry as much as why people, who don't know something to begin with, don't do a justifiable job, when presented with the facts ??

It seems anyone with enough gumption can d just about anything they set their mind to..... plus it helps to be in the right place at the right time.

Why would anyone who doesn't know how to do something or what something is, try to skirt around what's right in front of them, even if it means doing shoddy work ?? Why are so many people in this industry satisfied to just push pure crap through ?? I'm not talking layouts, logos or designs, but quality of products or better ways of doing something. If I had someone over to my house to do work and they tried to bullsh!t me into doing something they could do.... even if it wasn't the best or better way of doing it, just so they could make a better buck....... wha ??

So many people come here looking for answers...... first they were upset if you spoke harshly to them, then they became upset when you didn't give the answers they wanted. Now, they seem to just ignore good advise from just about everyone, unless you agree with the backyard hack ideas or theories they sport around.

What's with this industry ?? What's wrong with these work ethics ?? Why or where are these people doing such total crappola ??

 

[equippaint]

I think many people concoct a way to do something in their heads even if it's wrong. Then come looking for confirmation rather than help and are blind sided when they're told all the thinking and planning they did was wrong. How they react depends on the person
It's not just this industry that has a plethora of people with no attention to detail, its everywhere from professionals like doctors and lawyers down to menial laborers. There's plenty of aloof CEOs of large corporations that are just terrible at their jobs so it's not abnormal to see the same in small businesses. Some is out of pure stupidity, some laziness and others straight greed. It isn't new and isn't going away but I do agree it is very annoying and very hard to understand.

 

[Gino]

Ding, ding, ding, ding-a-ling, ling ling...........................

That's the first time I've heard anyone else admit it. It's not just this field, not any group in particular or any reason for it like greed, laziness or whatever................... The only thing you didn't hit on is...... it's what is being taught from early on up in the home, schools and on the street. Someone else is always gonna bail your a$$ out. If they don't, they're haters. They are compared to Hitler or just downright meanies.

People want everything handed to them and whether they concoct it right or wrong, it ain't their fault and someone will fix it, so f*ck it for now....... it ain't my problem.

Wow, this is the fastest anyone has really gotten close. ​

So, now that we've figured that out..... how do we fix it ?? Is is fixable in our industry/neighborhood ?? Do we wanna fix it ?? Is it worth fixing ?? Do we wanna just go on working with temperamental mental giants ??

 

[HulkSmash]

lmao. Oh Gino - I miss you

 

[Gino]

​

 

[ikarasu]

Because why would I wrap a car and print on 180, when I can print on IJ35, which is half the price, and make an extra $50-100.

People want to get things done for the cheapest way possible. Tell them they need a tool, or to do it a certain way... And they'll still try to do it as cheap as possible.

If you don't have the right tools for the job, don't do the job if you're not willing to outsource.


I had a friend want a decal made. I offered it to him at cost. He wanted a big decal for the whole hood of his trunk... He asked me why it's cheaper to buy a 5 FT decal off of Ebay, and get free shipping, then it is for my decal. I told him to buy the one off ebay since it was $10, and when he gets it, compare it to my 180/8518 decal, and he'll see why.

The good news is the people who are cutting corners, and refusing to do things properly... are usually the ones who will be out of business in a few months when word of mouth gets around. The bad news is, they'll sell their stuff on craigslist for 1/4 the price, and someone new with the same attitude will come out and do the same thing. Endless cycles!

 

[Gino]

Yes, ika, that's quite true, but not the end of it. Back in the late 80's when so many franchise 'Quick Banners & Signs' or 'Instant Signs' sign shops started popping up, they were a nuisance, but as you pointed out, they got buried alive and sold their stuff to some other get-rich scheme person. However, as one closed, it seemed two or maybe three new ones sprouted onto the scene. They multiply like crazy. However, by not knowing the ropes coming in, they made it difficult to compete price-wise, as they told people anything and people simply went with the less expensive price...... not knowing they were getting crap. Same thing today, but the people of today are being educated to do things this way. They no longer are learning about hard work pays off or good craftsmanship will give you a good reputation. They are being handed a bill-a-goods by vendors, suppliers and other people how easy it is.... so they can make a buck selling to them, as they ran out of sign shops to sell this stuff to. They don't really care after the sale is made..... not many of them. Luckily around s101 we have really good caring vendors and suppliers.

 

[qmr55]

Whereas now someone buys a printer or plotter makes up a name and they're a "sign company".

As opposed to...?

How else do you expect one to do it?

 

[equippaint]

There's no fixing it and even if you could, I wouldn't want to. We get quite a bit of work from other companies that screw up. Were known to be knowledgeable, fair and provide quality work. If everyone did that, my job would be that much more difficult.
I don't believe it can be blamed on upbringing. Ive seen too many "screwups" that come from hard working ethical parents and on the flip side, have seen many hard working successful people come up from bad families. If you become an MD you obviously have the discipline, some level of intelligence and drive to get through school, residency etc. But many are just bad and mentally lazy at their jobs. Some MDs I know have an entitled attitude just like an 18 yr old kid when it comes to work. I hear people complain about the young entitled generation but I've seen this in adults just as often as younger people. Its just overlooked more because many adults are able to bring more to the table initially.
There is no correlation between intelligence, level of detail in work, socio-economic status, upbringing and work ethics. Really, you're better off spending your time trying to come up with a perpetual motion machine than to figure this out.

 

[Johnny Best]

I really don't have the Chicken Little attitude that there are some great signs being made out there. Good design and smart sign people. But, it does seem that a lot of people looking to start out in the sign business and come on this site do have an attitude. We all have a certain degree of it ourselves and get agravated at some of the responses. When someone falls and you offer assistance you do not expect tha person to get mad at you for trying to help, maybe they are embrassed they have to have the help and they lash out. And sometimes, and I am guilty of it myself sometimes will laugh at the person when they stumble.
Maybe the attitude comes from the frustration of learning something new and their skill level is just not there yet.

 

[equippaint]

Yes, ika, that's quite true, but not the end of it. Back in the late 80's when so many franchise 'Quick Banners & Signs' or 'Instant Signs' sign shops started popping up, they were a nuisance, but as you pointed out, they got buried alive and sold their stuff to some other get-rich scheme person. However, as one closed, it seemed two or maybe three new ones sprouted onto the scene. They multiply like crazy. However, by not knowing the ropes coming in, they made it difficult to compete price-wise, as they told people anything and people simply went with the less expensive price...... not knowing they were getting crap. Same thing today, but the people of today are being educated to do things this way. They no longer are learning about hard work pays off or good craftsmanship will give you a good reputation. They are being handed a bill-a-goods by vendors, suppliers and other people how easy it is.... so they can make a buck selling to them, as they ran out of sign shops to sell this stuff to. They don't really care after the sale is made..... not many of them. Luckily around s101 we have really good caring vendors and suppliers.

It's always been like this, I think you have forgotten or are more aware of it the older and more knowledgeable that you become. The suppliers have always been pushing a sale with little regard for the future of someones ill conceived business venture. By rights, it's not the suppliers responsibility to hold someones hand through a startup business, their ethical responsibility stops after selling someone a machine that they need based on what they are trying to do. Its not their job to qualify someones business plan, that's the banks job on the loan end.
My family got out of this industry in the early 90s with the exact same attitude that in a couple years the markets gonna be sooo saturated that everyone will be broke and out of business. Now that PCs are cheap, every tom dick and harry can go buy a plotter, cut my prices, steal my business yada yada yada. Its been like 30 years since I first started hearing this and there are plenty of people still making good money in it. There's more to being a carpenter than owning the tools.

 

[equippaint]

While a good story, its an anomaly. When I first started I never turned away work like most people, as time goes on I turn a bunch away. If it doesn't fit what you do or take you somewhere you want to be it's pointless. I've quoted jobs really high because I didn't want them but don't want to set a precedent to the company that we will never do that kind of work. We've got some of those jobs and I kick myself for quoting them because I really didn't want them no matter how much we'd make on it. It's a gamble because if it ties up your resources for an extended period of time, you run the risk of losing your gravy that you worked hard to get. We do some big jobs but now that I'm wiser to it, I go toes first rather than jumping right in like I used to. I've seen many contractors hit the lotto on high $$ jobs, seen many more go under on high $$ jobs. Never seen either of that on jobs that are within the size and scope of their normal work.
Not to be confrontational but there's way more than 3 people that do this kind of work on that scale and larger but do appreciate the story and the point of it.

 

[Signchief]

I think allot of it can be blamed on the internet. 20 yrs ago you most likely got into this business one of two ways as a salesman brokering deals or as a grunt making minimum wage. The broker was able to make a living based on their ability to sell and their personality; if the sign company they were buying from didn't like them they got kicked to the curb. As the broker worked deals they would learn from their wholesaler how things were done so obviously they would be grateful for the education because it allowed them to earn a living. The grunt would progress based on work ethic, personality and a passion for the trade. In either case the individual would start out on their own only after feeling competent enough to do so. Now days you can think you learned the mechanics on youtube and buy equipment online. So once you think you know what you're doing and you have the tools to do it there's no concept of how things actually work. People don't usually ask questions that they know are stupid so to question their ignorance is taken as an insult because for them it is. Give someone a fish and they eat one meal give them a fishing pole and they either ask you how to use it or beat you over the head with it and steal your fish!

 

[Johnny Best]

Or give him a net and he will sell you whatever he has left over or take you fishing.