Lam Separated From Vinyl, Again

[Kentucky Wraps]

I'm not sure if it's the Overlam not sticking to the Latex ink or what. HP retailer tells me it's probably the laminator not putting enough pressure. I've never had this issue though with my Roland eco-sol.
Has anyone else out there seen this problem with theirs?
HP L560, Latex ink, Avery 1105, and happened with both 1060 & 1360 gloss laminates.

 

[Gino]

Is this picture before it left your shop ?? You're still in the process of applying it ??

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

We were replacing that panel because my trainee got it a little crooked and relief cut it making a seem. So I reprinted it and while he was removing it, the separation started.
He called me over and I gave a little tug and it came away from the print very easily. It happened on another spot where he was pulling the trimmed off piece of perf from around the window...where the perf stuck to the vinyl.

 

[eahicks]

Man I sure see more problems with Avery than I used to. Stopped using them years ago but thought they had gotten better. Will stick to 3M.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

Is this picture before it left your shop ?? You're still in the process of applying it ??

Here's that other spot I mentioned. As he was pulling it away from right to left...you can see (yellow arrow) where it started to come away from the print. Not even on a cut edge.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

Man I sure see more problems with Avery than I used to. Stopped using them years ago but thought they had gotten better. Will stick to 3M.

I'm not sure it's Avery. It may be the laminator or the ink. I'm not making any claims at this point, I'm just trying to get an idea if this is happening to anyone else out there.

 

[AKwrapguy]

So after you print, do you notice a film on the print at all? Almost like it's greasy but the print it dry? Without seeing the setup, I'm shooting in the dark but maybe look at increasing your dwell time in the heaters so go from a 8 to a 10 pass, also maybe look at decreasing the density from 110% to 100% and maybe even bumping up you heat another 10-15 degrees. Also what's you optimizer at as well? I've heard that this can have adverse issues with laminate. Again just shooting in the dark but it might be any one or even all three is these needs to be just tweaked a little bit.

 

[ikarasu]

When I first started printing on my latex I noticed a greasy residue. Or some spots that weren't quite dry while the rest was. Latex won't dry if it's not completely dry - it's not exactly wet, but it leaves a oily substance. How do the prints feel on the locations the vinyl is coming off? Is it easy to pull every piece off, or just certain ones?

I'd try on an area of non printed vinyl. See if it's still easy.

We had a roll of 3m anti graffiti, laminated the whole thing... Then I noticed the same thing as you (printing on eco solvent, our work machine). We could easily rip the laminate off. Infact, we ended up peeling a whole roll of laminate off of mounted sheets, and re-laminating one by one. Called 3m... Gave them a sample piece, and they sent us a new roll which was good. Turns out something bad happened with the glue. I

 

[nate]

This is a known issue with Avery 1105 and the 560/570 machines.

It's annoying.

 

[mpn]

Is it only the 560/570 machines? We use 1105 and just installed a 335 and don't want to find out after the fact.

 

[nate]

Is it only the 560/570 machines? We use 1105 and just installed a 335 and don't want to find out after the fact.

I'll ask.

 

[ddarlak]

i stopped reading when i saw AVERY.....problem solved

 

[crystalcoastgraphics]

Yes, this has been an on going issue for them. We have a 570 as well. I spoke with an Avery rep back in June about it, and they are aware of it. Take this for what it’s worth, but a 3m rep told me just a couple weeks ago that the optimizer isn’t “outgassing” enough on the 570’s and that is what is causing the separation with the Avery products.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Yes, this has been an on going issue for them. We have a 570 as well. I spoke with an Avery rep back in June about it, and they are aware of it. Take this for what it’s worth, but a 3m rep told me just a couple weeks ago that the optimizer isn’t “outgassing” enough on the 570’s and that is what is causing the separation with the Avery products.

Never believe anything 3M says, they are the epitome of point the finger! We have had 40+ rolls of 8508 shrink and delaminate from its own adhesive, they blamed everything including HP. Yet with Avery and Arlon never have we had that issue.

 

[crystalcoastgraphics]

I’m with you 2ct, I’m 3m certified, Lowen certified, 3m architectural certified, and Avery certified. And I prefer installing Avery the most. Haven’t had any issues in the last 6+years with their vinyl until this with the delamination. And as long as you’re careful it can be avoided. Knowing it can happen, and just take precautions. Sometimes if I know it will be vinyl on vinyl for a while, I’ll run a piece of transfer tape over the lower layer to prevent it. I know is an extra step but it works if need be

 

[jfiscus]

We laminate a lot of different vinyls, but hardly ever Avery, many different employees running the laminators at a lot of different settings, and I have never seen this type of issue. We didn't have our latex printer for long, but it REALLY looks to be the laminate that is the culprit to me, that stuff sticks to ANYTHING it can in my personal experience.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

Update:
It appears to be the scratch resistance coating in the Latex inks that migrate to the surface during curing, causing a barrier preventing a full bond. It's not just Avery but testing has shown it to affect 3M and others. Their working on a fix. The product warranty is honored 100% by Avery.

 

[jfiscus]

Wow, THAT is scary. I'd be very scared of this happening again then, thanks for the heads up!

 

[AKwrapguy]

So it's the new gen 3 inks that are causing the issue? I wonder if it's creating a 'hydrophopic' type situation where the adhesive on the laminate is not able to set or bond to the printed area. Maybe add a little heat to the rollers when laminating and see if you can get the adhesive flowing and see if that will help. I've had an issue were I was very easy able to pull the laminate off the printed material when printing with latex but it had just been laminated. I found that if it sits for a few minutes it's much more difficult, but nothing like you had.

 

[nate]

Update:
It appears to be the scratch resistance coating in the Latex inks that migrate to the surface during curing, causing a barrier preventing a full bond. It's not just Avery but testing has shown it to affect 3M and others. Their working on a fix. The product warranty is honored 100% by Avery.

What's interesting is this does not happen on our 3000 or 3500, nor does it do it on the 360. It is solely on the 560 and 570 machines. I wouldn't blame the ink per se as it is all using the same ink. It has something to do with the process.