Now, that's low..................................

[Craig Sjoquist]

Most likely a bait & switch

Maybe the printing is that price, then you add the banner cost , then you add grommets hemming etc, of course add the design & art work layout price

& hopefully you are up to above normal price for a banner

 

[Jwalk]

Cheap vinyl makes me wonder why I try to do hand paints. I mean I might as well try to manufacture 8 track tapes. I have customer regal me about how much they respect and love the old craft but when it comes to the pricing which by the way am losing my shirt over the prices they still dont bite.

The word profit seems to be so subjective now a days even in the big business world report when they say record profits it seems they just mean every cent that has come in.

 

[TimToad]

I suppose I should ask OldPaint this, but was he only working out in the sun as his only light source? In a public park he wasn't paying any rent or mortgage on? Never driving anywhere to pick up materials or deliver finished product?

The problem I see is that many in the old "workin' out of my garage or back of my truck" equals zero overhead business model have gone through their working lives thinking they were a lot more profitable than they actually are because they aren't including the countless costs and expenses even "working out of the garage" incur.
GEE..HOW'D YOU KNOW THAT????????
i PAINTED more stuff in the sunlight then you would believe. BOATS..... cant bring everyone of em to the shop)))))
specially them big ones)))))) STOCK CARS, on a good day i could hand letter 3 complete cars))))) $3-400 each, no ELECTRICITY, NO VINYL, and my cost of doing business for the day was some mineral spirits, maybe a qt of paint($8.00 then) no shop rent.............say the 3 cars i got $300 each......8 hours of DAYLIGHT, $20 in expenses(including lunch and gas)hehehehehehe.......so i made $880.00......yea we didnt make any money.......wit all them other costs)))))))
back to BOATS..... do a transom lettering.......most of the time NO PATTERN, designed on the spot....(in my head computer)output with my fingers....workin out in the sunlight, in shorts, and sunglasses..gettin a tan.........and cost of this, again maybe $20 in materials........$200-300 for couple hours work...........

You are taking this way too personally. I also was not denigrating your earning power, speed, efficiency, etc.

Those were indeed simpler times and I was a part of it also, so don't think for a minute that I can't relate to your situation.

I really don't want to argue with you, but how did you get to the boat yard, race car garage, truck bay, etc.? How was the cost of that transportation built into your overhead? Insurance? Truck payments? Did carrier pigeons bring you your orders, or did you pay for a phone?

Somehow I have a sense though that possibly for many similarly situated signmakers, your tax returns showed a lot more expenses and deductions and less pure profit than you are here bragging about.

 

[Z SIGNS]

Just wait in a short time all dimensional signs will b 3d printed.

Lasers and cnc machines will be as useful as a jigsaw and a quill.

 

[OldPaint]

tim.......... i understand why you cant grasp that when i worked outa the trunk of my car, GAS WAS $1.40 A GAL, DENNY'S HAD A $2.99 BREAKFAST, insurance? on the car yes.......as a business.......didnt need it. didnt have a building,shop or worry about screwin up jobs.......cause the most damage i ever did was spill a little paint on someones sidewalk or THEIR SHOP FLOOR))))) AND MADE MORE PROFIT WITH LESS EQUIPMENT AND did this for many years. as for my tax time, i never paid any tax........as i was always aware of what profits i had and took all legal avenues to disperse any profits back in the business rather then pay that money out in taxes.....i do know how to handle money and stay within the law. truck payment? didnt have one))))))))) one of the things i would buy in nov/dec and deduct full price(you can on used vehicles)as expenditure))))) i was doing bookeeping when i was 10-11, my mother had a bar and i used to help her do the big double entry ledger)))))) she taught me well.

 

[TimToad]

tim.......... i understand why you cant grasp that when i worked outa the trunk of my car, GAS WAS $1.40 A GAL, DENNY'S HAD A $2.99 BREAKFAST, insurance? on the car yes.......as a business.......didnt need it. didnt have a building,shop or worry about screwin up jobs.......cause the most damage i ever did was spill a little paint on someones sidewalk or THEIR SHOP FLOOR))))) AND MADE MORE PROFIT WITH LESS EQUIPMENT AND did this for many years. as for my tax time, i never paid any tax........as i was always aware of what profits i had and took all legal avenues to disperse any profits back in the business rather then pay that money out in taxes.....i do know how to handle money and stay within the law. truck payment? didnt have one))))))))) one of the things i would buy in nov/dec and deduct full price(you can on used vehicles)as expenditure))))) i was doing bookeeping when i was 10-11, my mother had a bar and i used to help her do the big double entry ledger)))))) she taught me well.

Actually, I am grasping what you're saying, you just don't want to admit it. What I can't grasp is a guy telling me he had almost no overhead, made $800 per day with very little expenses doing so, but also never paid any taxes and was completely above board about it. What a country!

 

[OldPaint]

and what rock have you been living under??? oh i see, you follow all the laws and rules that you are told to and never waiver from them in the guise of being an honest businessman????
NO.1 RULE OF BUSINESS.......... make as much profit as you can and spend as little as you can to maximize your profit))))
NO. 2........ THE GOVT PROVIDES......... all the necessary loopholes, redirection of funds so you dont have to pay all your profit to them)))) AND WITHOUT BRAKING ANY LAWS)))))
ask MITT ROMNEY)))))
AND THE BEST RULES FOR BUSINESS......i adhere to these tenants)))))
The Known Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (only 22)there are more))))
Number Rule Source
1 "Once you have their money, you never give it back." "The Nagus" (DS9 episode)
2 "The best deal is the one that makes the most profit." The 34th Rule (DS9 novel)
3 "Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to." "The Maquis, Part II" (DS9 episode)
4 "A woman wearing clothes is like a man in the kitchen." The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (DS9 novel)
5 "Always exaggerate your estimates." Cold Fusion (SCE novel)
6 "Never let family stand in the way of opportunity." "The Nagus" (DS9 episode)
7 "Always keep your ears open." "In the Hands of the Prophets" (DS9 episode)
8 "Small print leads to large risk." The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (DS9 novel)
9 "Instinct, plus opportunity, equals profit." "The Storyteller" (DS9 episode)
10 "Greed is eternal." "Prophet Motive" (VOY episode)
11 "Even if it's free, you can always buy it cheaper." The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (DS9 novel)
12 "Anything worth selling is worth selling twice." The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (DS9 novel)
13 "Anything worth doing is worth doing for money." Legends of the Ferengi (DS9 novel)
15 "Dead men close no deals." Demons of Air and Darkness (DS9 novel)
16 "A deal is a deal (is a deal)...until a better one comes along." The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (DS9 novel)
17 "A contract is a contract is a contract... but only between Ferengi." "Body Parts" (DS9 episode)
18 "A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all." "Heart of Stone" (DS9 episode)
19 "Satisfaction is not guaranteed." Legends of the Ferengi (DS9 novel)
20 "He who dives under the table today lives to profit tomorrow." Ferenginar: Satisfaction is Not Guaranteed (DS9 novella)
21 "Never place friendship before profit." "Rules of Acquisition" (DS9 episode)
22 "Wise men can hear profit in the wind."
ONE LAST SENTENCE..........which i tell all my clients....in a jewish accent..................
SUCH A DEAL ...I GOT ..FOR YOU)))))))

 

[MikeH]

So interesting to read this string. A friend and supplier builds equipment for our industry. Recently I asked him "why I did not see him at the trade shows?" "What new equipment is he coming out with?" He chuckled there is no return on the investment in the sign market at this time. It has moved from pride of workmanship and quality in the product to jest good enough.
He continued. "For the time being we are developing nothing new for the sign market." Why not? I asked. "Look" he answered "its $250,000 in engineering, $50,000 in certification, $100,000 in inventory and $30,000 to go to a trade show all before we sell the first new machine. I pay my employees a good wage, pick up most of their health insurance, and match their 401k contributions. If they want to take a class that will help both of us we will pay for it. If I do my job, I make some money and pay my taxes. My competition in the U.S. has all but died off. now I compete with Chinese companies who copy our designs, do not test their equipment, and buy the cheapest parts. Wages, are low. Health care, retirement and continuing education cost are non-existent. You can buy direct from the factory, bypassing the dealer and they will change the price played for the equipment on the paperwork so you pay less in import duty. I spend a lot on insurance. The Chinese spend nothing."
"I understand why the market moved and should I change places with a shop owner I may make the same choice, those things are 1/2 to 1/4 the price of mine after all. For thirty years we have focused on selling the best and safest machines. Sometimes we are the least expensive to buy, most of the time we are the least expensive to own. So, for now, we will invest in other markets. I see no point in trading dollars to make a penne."
At 35 MPH from 50 yards that $0.40/Sq foot banner is going to perform as well as yours for the first 90 days.

 

[CanuckSigns]

banners have always been and will always be the "cheapest option" in the sign makers toolbelt, aimed at 2 specific groups of people, those looking for a very temporary sign, and those who come to you with too small of a budget for a real sign.

You can reminisce about how it was back in the day, but chances are banners were whipped out as fast as possible back then too.

 

[OldPaint]

YOUR RIGHT......... fast, accurate, and a good eye.......made us lots of money in short order.........we always told people..........we spend more time waiting for paint to dry..........THEN WE DID AT PAINTING THE SIGN)))))

 

[Pat Whatley]

Don't know what planet OP was living on but if he was selling 2x8 banners for $160 in 1980 that's worth $489 today. Every time I hear OP mention those insane profit margins I wonder why I never hear about any of those old sign painters retiring to their mansions in the Hamptons.

Hey Gino....care to share some info on where you got that price?

 

[OldPaint]

well patti.........back then all you needed was a clean diaper....)))))

 

[shibby]

NOT REALLY..........................YOU make the assumption..... I (LABORED) FOR ALL OF THAT $120))))
NOT SO...................take the time i spent on the banner, that would be LABOR...........and not materials.
1st off, with paint and brush..........and a simple banner text.......i probably took less time to paint it........THEN THE PRINTER DOES TO PRINT IT))))))))) i was fast and accurate..........single coat and it was done. my LABOR time including grommets maybe 1 HOURS)))))) so $120 an hour........IN MY POCKET $40 for material and grommets(and that is high end material))))) no lease payment, no laminator, no ink cost, NO ELECTRICITY))))

I suppose I should ask OldPaint this, but was he only working out in the sun as his only light source? In a public park he wasn't paying any rent or mortgage on? Never driving anywhere to pick up materials or deliver finished product?

The problem I see is that many in the old "workin' out of my garage or back of my truck" equals zero overhead business model have gone through their working lives thinking they were a lot more profitable than they actually are because they aren't including the countless costs and expenses even "working out of the garage" incur.
GEE..HOW'D YOU KNOW THAT????????
i PAINTED more stuff in the sunlight then you would believe. BOATS..... cant bring everyone of em to the shop)))))
specially them big ones)))))) STOCK CARS, on a good day i could hand letter 3 complete cars))))) $3-400 each, no ELECTRICITY, NO VINYL, and my cost of doing business for the day was some mineral spirits, maybe a qt of paint($8.00 then) no shop rent.............say the 3 cars i got $300 each......8 hours of DAYLIGHT, $20 in expenses(including lunch and gas)hehehehehehe.......so i made $880.00......yea we didnt make any money.......wit all them other costs)))))))
back to BOATS..... do a transom lettering.......most of the time NO PATTERN, designed on the spot....(in my head computer)output with my fingers....workin out in the sunlight, in shorts, and sunglasses..gettin a tan.........and cost of this, again maybe $20 in materials........$200-300 for couple hours work...........

and what rock have you been living under??? oh i see, you follow all the laws and rules that you are told to and never waiver from them in the guise of being an honest businessman????
NO.1 RULE OF BUSINESS.......... make as much profit as you can and spend as little as you can to maximize your profit))))
NO. 2........ THE GOVT PROVIDES......... all the necessary loopholes, redirection of funds so you dont have to pay all your profit to them)))) AND WITHOUT BRAKING ANY LAWS)))))
ask MITT ROMNEY)))))
AND THE BEST RULES FOR BUSINESS......i adhere to these tenants)))))
The Known Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (only 22)there are more))))
Number Rule Source
1 "Once you have their money, you never give it back." "The Nagus" (DS9 episode)
2 "The best deal is the one that makes the most profit." The 34th Rule (DS9 novel)
3 "Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to." "The Maquis, Part II" (DS9 episode)
4 "A woman wearing clothes is like a man in the kitchen." The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (DS9 novel)
5 "Always exaggerate your estimates." Cold Fusion (SCE novel)
6 "Never let family stand in the way of opportunity." "The Nagus" (DS9 episode)
7 "Always keep your ears open." "In the Hands of the Prophets" (DS9 episode)
8 "Small print leads to large risk." The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (DS9 novel)
9 "Instinct, plus opportunity, equals profit." "The Storyteller" (DS9 episode)
10 "Greed is eternal." "Prophet Motive" (VOY episode)
11 "Even if it's free, you can always buy it cheaper." The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (DS9 novel)
12 "Anything worth selling is worth selling twice." The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (DS9 novel)
13 "Anything worth doing is worth doing for money." Legends of the Ferengi (DS9 novel)
15 "Dead men close no deals." Demons of Air and Darkness (DS9 novel)
16 "A deal is a deal (is a deal)...until a better one comes along." The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (DS9 novel)
17 "A contract is a contract is a contract... but only between Ferengi." "Body Parts" (DS9 episode)
18 "A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all." "Heart of Stone" (DS9 episode)
19 "Satisfaction is not guaranteed." Legends of the Ferengi (DS9 novel)
20 "He who dives under the table today lives to profit tomorrow." Ferenginar: Satisfaction is Not Guaranteed (DS9 novella)
21 "Never place friendship before profit." "Rules of Acquisition" (DS9 episode)
22 "Wise men can hear profit in the wind."
ONE LAST SENTENCE..........which i tell all my clients....in a jewish accent..................
SUCH A DEAL ...I GOT ..FOR YOU)))))))

WHYYYYY.........do you insist......ON TYPING........(((((((LIKE....THIS))))))...........

Lord it makes reading your posts really irritating. You've got good points, but reading your posts is really frustrating. Some basic formatting would really help your readability, and might increase the positive responses you receive.

 

[OldPaint]

i irritated you????? dang it.....i DID MY JOB)))))) glad to have done something right)))))))hahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[shibby]

You're right. Improving content readability is a stupid concept

 

[Quark]

i irritated you????? dang it.....i DID MY JOB)))))) glad to have done something right)))))))hahahahahahahahahahaha

anyone quoting rules of acquisition is super cool in my book. I actually wanted to print a pocket version for my self to check with then in doubt

 

[dypinc]

Sounds like someone with government grant, lowballing again.

 

[Billct2]

I distinctly remember two prices point from around 1980.
The guy that got me started was getting $1.00 a square foot for paper signs, done with water based poster paint on plain paper stock.
And the larger commercial shop I worked in was getting $500 for a single face 4x8 site sign, installed.

 

[signed off]

Why not call them and ask what they are using 13oz, 22oz, does it for sure include hem and grommets, is there extra $$ for layout. how much to ship
just curious because no matter how I figure it, a 2' x 8' is $14.24 there is no way it can cover overhead, labor, material and what part of the world are they in? some where they have to be making money to cover the cost of the machine alone

 

[Bretbyron]

Why not call them and ask what they are using 13oz, 22oz, does it for sure include hem and grommets, is there extra $$ for layout. how much to ship
just curious because no matter how I figure it, a 2' x 8' is $14.24 there is no way it can cover overhead, labor, material and what part of the world are they in? some where they have to be making money to cover the cost of the machine alone

It's 13oz matte or gloss...I believe it is supposed to be to trade only. You have to order an obscene amount to get that $.40 price. Yes, free hems and grommets. Design ready artwork.